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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2012 6:50:57 GMT
Hi
been asked this question
"does Jubilee line uses ATO in the sidings"
As i have no idea thought I ask on here.
TIA
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2012 10:09:53 GMT
Yes for mainline sidings such as Wembley, Willesden and West Hampstead. No for Stanmore sidings due to the possible presence of staff on the walkboards (trains switch to and from ATO at the reception road).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2012 18:58:50 GMT
Yes for mainline sidings such as Wembley, Willesden and West Hampstead. No for Stanmore sidings due to the possible presence of staff on the walkboards (trains switch to and from ATO at the reception road). Thanks
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 23, 2012 20:34:53 GMT
I don't see the point in using ATO in sidings If i were the driver i would not trust ATO into the sidings. The central line always drives manual in sidings and i assume the victoria line is the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2012 21:07:36 GMT
I'd be more inclined to trust ATO at slow speeds in a siding than at full pelt with a load of passengers aboard. I'm sure I saw on here somewhere a train leaving the station and returning via a siding without a driver to save him changing ends. Not sure what country it was though......maybe Japan.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 23, 2012 21:25:22 GMT
I don't see the point in using ATO in sidings If i were the driver i would not trust ATO into the sidings. The central line always drives manual in sidings and i assume the victoria line is the same. It is possible to enter the sidings (well loops) at Woodford, Debden and Newbury Park in ATO, but not exit them in that mode. I'm not sure why you wouldn't trust ATO in sidings. It is no different to a train in ATO mode driving into a dead end platform like Ealing Broadway or Woodford bay road platform.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 23, 2012 22:27:48 GMT
a train leaving the station and returning via a siding without a driver to save him changing ends. Not sure what country it was though......maybe Japan. maybe this one in Vienna
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 24, 2012 7:33:56 GMT
I know what you mean but if they cant drive manual in sidings what about their driving skills? Am sure West Ham to the Depot is Manual surely? It is strange when I get on the Jubilee line thinking its being driven by a computer! Not the driver!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2012 10:17:58 GMT
I don't see the point in using ATO in sidings If i were the driver i would not trust ATO into the sidings. The central line always drives manual in sidings and i assume the victoria line is the same. Why would you not trust ATO in the sidings? Most driverless metros (such as Vancouver Skytrain) have completely automated depots (apart from heavy maintenance roads). I'd be more inclined to trust ATO at slow speeds in a siding than at full pelt with a load of passengers aboard. I'm sure I saw on here somewhere a train leaving the station and returning via a siding without a driver to save him changing ends. Not sure what country it was though......maybe Japan. Many automated metros (with drivers) use automated reversing, including Rome, Madrid, Vienna, and Bangkok. Most have the driver at one end of train during the reversing procedure, drivers swap in either the arrival or departure platform. Vienna is an unusual one where the driver walks between the arrival and departure platform at the siding end of the platform. All driverless metros that reverse beyond the platform obviously use automated reversing.
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Post by rsdworker on Jan 24, 2012 14:57:15 GMT
also DLR has automatic ones - you may seen in use in bank where train captain usually oversees the automatic reversing in ATO mode in that video earlier - its looks like a automatic train slding where driver has switched on a speical computer that commands the train from platform to sliding yard beyond once staff walks across to other platform and turns the key to call train from sliding to driver - once train arrives - stops at headwall with driver door visible and driver opens the cab door and turns train back to manual mode its very strange but a saving time for drivers to change ends
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 24, 2012 15:55:38 GMT
But how are we going to keep drivers skills up to date? I am sure they will drive manual in depots for obvious reasons. They should have at least once a week a full line PM mode Off peak to keep their skills up to date. I don't get it One company but rules on lines are different the central its compolsury to drive manual on Sundays where the Jubilee is not
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 24, 2012 17:11:52 GMT
I suspect the idiosyncrasies exist because of differing agreements and proceedures arranged at the time of each conversion. Sometimes theres just no justification for changing something if it isn't not working, you know? Every change costs money and time to organise, arrange and implement so unless the change provides a significantly beneficial outcome, whats the point? Put another (somewhat contentious way), granted a driver needs to keep up their familiarity for the road and stock, but on an automatic railway this will be primarily for when running under some kind of failure; ie, (hopefully!!) rarely. If the most common (disproportionately) bit of manual driving is actually the practice for if one needs to drive manually, then whats the point of justifying it as a compulsory and regulated practice? Drivers are required to sign the route and stock regularly, this implies they are familiar enough with whatever circumstances they find themselves in anyway. Add to that the fact that in the real world failures do happen a fair amount... people end up with the experience anyway. Also surely theres lee-way at slack times for a driver to request to go into PM mode if they wish; read a story in the Metro not too long ago about a driver on the Jubilee who asked to go into PM because they saw a deer running near the tracks ahead, it was off peak, and they only had a couple of passengers aboard. So, one way or another, things work out
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2012 21:57:11 GMT
But how are we going to keep drivers skills up to date? We (I assume you mean LUL) probably won't eventually. For those who enjoy actually driving a tube train, and I suspect you aspire to this occupation as well, will have to be content with being just another easily replaceable part serving a bigger machine as opposed to the captain of the ship. It is one company, true, but just like the company I work for, different departments do things in different ways. It's just how the world works and in the death, provided the Jubilee Line settles down and manages to deliver the required service interval, the public won't care who's driving the train, a human or a computer with a human supervisor. Sad but true.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 14:26:49 GMT
But how are we going to keep drivers skills up to date? An hour in the simulator every month or so?
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 25, 2012 15:31:30 GMT
That would be good! Using the Simulator but Not as good as the real thing! If i were the driver on the Jubilee line I would have to use ATO obviously but if I got bored I would just flick the switch over to PM! Not sure If drivers would get sacked in real life for this?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 16:23:34 GMT
That would be good! Using the Simulator but Not as good as the real thing! If i were the driver on the Jubilee line I would have to use ATO obviously but if I got bored I would just flick the switch over to PM! Not sure If drivers would get sacked in real life for this? Depends on the circumstances and rules. If a driver had chosen to drive in PM for no good reason and then went on to overshoot a signal or platform, they might get a talking to!
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 25, 2012 21:01:24 GMT
But shouldent that not happen in PM as when it is approaching the station the target speed should be 0 on the TOD. Is there any hard fast rules on PM use on the Jubilee line? I don't see why not off peak it must get very boring if you just press two buttons all day!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2012 9:48:17 GMT
I don't see why not off peak it must get very boring if you just press two buttons all day! Dont forget door open and door close too!! The Victoria Line is equally as boring, and they have no planned PM driving (except depot to Seven Sisters and back at the moment, though this will be auto in the future).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2012 13:39:34 GMT
Jardine you're looking at this as a rail enthusiast.
On the central out in the east sticks on sundays, I would say probably half the trains are still running in ATO. The drivers are allowed and encouraged to use CM in these circumstances, but some still prefer ATO
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Post by jardine01 on Jan 26, 2012 16:04:39 GMT
But I don't get why the Jubilee line does not? I often thought on the Jubilee line when trains come in slowly to stations and braking gradually it would be manual. No wonder some drivers prefer to drive in ATO as they probally have lost their confidence to drive full speed they will only be used to driving at low speeds in depots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 22:22:06 GMT
There are numerous trains driving in PM mode on the Jubilee most days for one reason or another, so I think you will find most drivers are getting enough manual driving to keep their hands in! If a train is out of service for example and only one person is in the cab, the train is always driven in PM mode. Likewise the daily track patrols on the north end of the line often warrant PM driving.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2012 13:59:01 GMT
I get the jubilee on most days on my way to work and I'm pretty sure from approach speeds into stations that trains for the most part are not being driven manually. An Instructor Operator who's now does testing says drivers on ATO lines are losing their driving skills in terms of normal speed operations.
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Post by jardine01 on Feb 1, 2012 14:36:57 GMT
When I am on the Jubilee line Trains seem to be in ATO in the tunnels however North of stations of Finchely Road they seem to be allot slower. I really think they should be a manual section of track on the Jubilee line maybe Wembly to Stanmore? Off peak? What do drivers think of ATO? I guess its like marmite some love it some hate it!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2012 21:21:47 GMT
I think over 95% of all runs are in ATO all the time. Reason for the massively different approaches to station stops above and below ground is down to the braking rates set on the control system. Adhesion issues underground are pretty non-existant, whereas above ground are more problematic, so the system has different braking rates set at start up, which are usually further manually adjusted above ground to prevent slip/slide. Even with the more gentle braking, the trains still struggle sometimes in those 'greasy' conditions, but in the dry seem very slow for no good reason. I think this is because it is not easy to adjust the braking rates, so they tend to be left at 'very gentle' above ground all the time?
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Post by jardine01 on Feb 4, 2012 8:15:51 GMT
Trouble is though that having slow approaches to platforms is going to slow down the trains behind. When 30 TPH comes is this the whole line or just the central core? Surely the whole point of ATO is to move along the line as fast as possible otherwise whats the point in ATO? The adhesion braking rates should be altered yes if its poor conditions bring em in slow but when its fine there is no reason to bring them in at 30mph?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2012 9:56:07 GMT
I haven't noticed slow approaches to Canning Town or West Ham. Tubes seem to be allowed to brake harder than NR trains in general anyway !
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Post by jardine01 on Feb 4, 2012 18:22:50 GMT
No approaches to stations North of Finchely road are slow! West Ham to Canning town is fast however only two sections which is always fast is Waterloo to Southwark Bond street to Green park
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Post by jardine01 on Feb 5, 2012 14:20:58 GMT
I was wondering with the snow yesterday would the Jubilee line of drove manually with it being snowy? Or would it be in ATO still?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 8, 2012 2:15:21 GMT
Coded manual tends to be far more common in adverse weather conditions; certainly its been mentioned on here a few times in relation to the Central line!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2012 18:15:37 GMT
I was wondering with the snow yesterday would the Jubilee line of drove manually with it being snowy? Or would it be in ATO still? Generally in ATO with a reduced brake rate so trains brake earlier and more gently. Still some non communicating trains as a result of slip slide issues so more work to do on refining what is done in snow and ice.
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