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Post by hollyhiccups on Jan 21, 2012 16:50:03 GMT
Hello I haven't been on in a while - I hope that everyone had a lovely Christmas! At least it was without snow this year! I understand that some lines on the LU have a walkway along side the tracks which can be used by maintenance and station staff - and especially passengers. How wide are these walkways? Which lines are they on? How high are they from the track? or are they level? Any info - or even photos - would be really appreciated! Thanks
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 21, 2012 17:02:57 GMT
Hi. I don't know any off the top of my head except the DLR tunnels. Most tube tunnels barely fit the trains. The northern section of the Circle Line is quite wide which is a relic of the broad gauge days but there are no actual walkways to my knowledge.
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Post by v52gc on Jan 21, 2012 17:30:58 GMT
The extension tunnels to T5 on the Pic kind of have walkways. They are at track level on the right.
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kabsonline
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Post by kabsonline on Jan 21, 2012 18:07:15 GMT
I'm sure the Victoria Line has them from memory of watching the drivers eye view. However I'm sure I heard (correct me if I'm wrong because I might be completely wrong) that they can not actually be used because of health and safety. Some of the JLE stations have walkways that extend a small distance into the tunnels but not sure which stations of hand. From memory of watching the Video 125 drivers eye views none of the other lines have them
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North End
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Post by North End on Jan 21, 2012 18:08:49 GMT
The extension tunnels to T5 on the Pic kind of have walkways. They are at track level on the right. The tunnel sections of the JLE have walkways, although ironically they actually serve little purpose, for the track is just as easy to walk along in these tunnels (at least until the TBTC cables were installed!).
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Post by melikepie on Jan 21, 2012 19:21:44 GMT
Are the walkways wide enough for people with wheelchairs?
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Post by bruce on Jan 21, 2012 20:38:07 GMT
The 'walkways' that you see in the Victoria Line tunnels are in fact a sound barrier. They were never designed to be a walkway as they are too high up the side of the tunnel. Also there are gaps in them at crosspassages etc.
Bruce.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 8:27:13 GMT
The “walkways” you see on the JLE are there to simply to access rooms that some bright spark saw fit to stick beyond the head and tail walls.
I was on the station staff when it first opened and also was a H&S Rep, as part of our quarterly inspection we had to check every room, the first time we did North Greenwich and Canary Wharf it took a whole week to insepct them all. Even though we took a DSM with us we still got lost a few times.
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Post by hollyhiccups on Jan 22, 2012 10:50:55 GMT
Wow - thanks for all your replies! Very useful. Anyone know any info on how many detrainings there are in, say, a year? Also - obviously the tracks can be very dangerous - and are usually live - if there is a de-training, or maintenance, or staff doing a walk-round, are they simply turned off? How simple is this and who does it? Thanks as always
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kabsonline
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Post by kabsonline on Jan 22, 2012 18:32:16 GMT
Sorry I was completely wrong. Thanks to bruce and railtechnician for correcting me
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Post by rsdworker on Jan 22, 2012 19:49:16 GMT
Are the walkways wide enough for people with wheelchairs? only DLR tunnels has wide walkway for wheelchairs to escape from DLR trains
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2012 22:19:01 GMT
Some of the things that I did when I was a signal lineman are probably no longer allowed, for instance rebuilding a set of points at Heathrow T123 with the current on and trains running. This was done using the 'all parties must come to complete agreement about what is to be done' rule which covered those situations which were not specifically covered under normal procedures. I think H&S rules some if not all such works out nowadays. The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 Part 2. Regulation 14: Work on or near live conductors No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unless– (a) it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and (b) it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and (c) suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury. Or to put it another way if there’s no desperate reason for the juice to be on then it’s illegal to be working “live”. All H&S legislation came in because of an incident, in the case of the EaWR because some dumb sparks managed to fry themselves.
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North End
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Post by North End on Jan 23, 2012 11:24:03 GMT
Wow - thanks for all your replies! Very useful. Anyone know any info on how many detrainings there are in, say, a year? Also - obviously the tracks can be very dangerous - and are usually live - if there is a de-training, or maintenance, or staff doing a walk-round, are they simply turned off? How simple is this and who does it? Thanks as always Can't help you with detraining statistics, you need someone from service control or above for that info. As far as staff working on or about the track it all depends upon the situation but generally for routine work the traction will be discharged under line safe (open sections) and line clear (tube tunnels and sub surface tunnels) procedures. For night maintenance current in tube and sub surface areas is discharged at the end of traffic hours by service controllers tripping the tunnel telephone circuit for each current section and then confirming the discharge with the power control room. Discharging traction this way conveniently allows the service controller to test the integrity of tunnel telephone circuitry. When current needs to be discharged in an emergency or other incident requiring track access the tunnel telephone circuit is most often used to do it (there are many ways of using the T/T) but the power control room can also discharge current upon request of the service controller if it has not already been discharged using the T/T. There are occasions when staff may work with traction on to deal with certain types of failure or to clip and scotch points when working within an engineer's current area. LUL has a very comprehensive and complex set of rules, regs & procedures to handle all situations, you ask how simple and my answer is that they are simple for those who are trained to work under them. As I used to install and maintain tunnel telephones as part of my duties and was a permanent night worker for most of my career, working in tunnels with or without traction 'on' was second nature to me. When detraining passengers the traction would be discharged first, the last thing anyone would want in a detraining situation is for a passenger to be electrocuted when walking to safety! There are one or two emergency detraining points in some tunnels such as on the Victoria line, the Central Line, the Piccadilly line and the Metropolitan line with stairs to street level, these being between stations on some of the longer tunnel sections but I can't recall passengers having to use them in my many years on the system although I had occasion to use several of them myself. Some of the things that I did when I was a signal lineman are probably no longer allowed, for instance rebuilding a set of points at Heathrow T123 with the current on and trains running. This was done using the 'all parties must come to complete agreement about what is to be done' rule which covered those situations which were not specifically covered under normal procedures. I think H&S rules some if not all such works out nowadays. At one time I'd be walking one tunnel with trains still running in the other tunnel but that doesn't happen anymore since switching on and off times of adjacent current sections was harmonised about fifteen or twenty years ago. For example I could walk the tunnel from Turnpike Lane to Arsenal on the westbound before the current was off on the eastbound! The situation of having current on in one tunnel and off in the other does still occur. The rules are a bit vague about this, but I can find no written reason why it is prohibited to access one tunnel when trains are running in the other ...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2012 12:48:39 GMT
The situation of having current on in one tunnel and off in the other does still occur. The rules are a bit vague about this, but I can find no written reason why it is prohibited to access one tunnel when trains are running in the other ... Though I couldn’t say for definite I’d imagine the LC would allow it with a Protection Master to stop anyone wandering through a cross passage.
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North End
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Post by North End on Jan 24, 2012 23:49:28 GMT
Though I couldn’t say for definite I’d imagine the LC would allow it with a Protection Master to stop anyone wandering through a cross passage. I didn't say it couldn't happen, only that traction switching times had been made to coincide to prevent it under normal circumstances. The current awitching on/off times were deliberately made to coincide for safety reasons as it was deemed unsafe by Engineering Works controllers for staff to be in one tunnel with trains running in the other. The same applied in open sections of four tracking where adjacent roads of different lines once had different switching on/off times. Also working directly adjacent to specified areas, engineer's current areas and possessions was deemed to be similarly dangerous and was prevented whenever possible by EWC. I used to be on the track six and seven nights a week as a SPIC, PM and person doing the work in both tunnel and open sections and I remember the grief the EWC would give out when trying to book out an adjacent section to the front rear or side of another which was occupied by a train and generally the only way was a face to face meeting with the possession master or protection master as appropriate and the site person in charge and/or trainmaster who would then also contact the EWC to indicate an agreement and safe system of work in place. This may have fallen by the wayside, as I've never known access to be refused if trains are running in an adjacent tunnel, nor in the same traction current section as a specified area (not within that area of course). What I have known to be refused, is being on an open section track immediately adjacent to a specified area. Maybe things would be different depending on what work the requester is to be undertaking. I suppose it depends how familiar the person is with the railway as well.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 25, 2012 2:51:09 GMT
I didn't say it couldn't happen, only that traction switching times had been made to coincide to prevent it under normal circumstances. The current awitching on/off times were deliberately made to coincide for safety reasons as it was deemed unsafe by Engineering Works controllers for staff to be in one tunnel with trains running in the other. The same applied in open sections of four tracking where adjacent roads of different lines once had different switching on/off times. Also working directly adjacent to specified areas, engineer's current areas and possessions was deemed to be similarly dangerous and was prevented whenever possible by EWC. I used to be on the track six and seven nights a week as a SPIC, PM and person doing the work in both tunnel and open sections and I remember the grief the EWC would give out when trying to book out an adjacent section to the front rear or side of another which was occupied by a train and generally the only way was a face to face meeting with the possession master or protection master as appropriate and the site person in charge and/or trainmaster who would then also contact the EWC to indicate an agreement and safe system of work in place. This may have fallen by the wayside, as I've never known access to be refused if trains are running in an adjacent tunnel, nor in the same traction current section as a specified area (not within that area of course). What I have known to be refused, is being on an open section track immediately adjacent to a specified area. Maybe things would be different depending on what work the requester is to be undertaking. I suppose it depends how familiar the person is with the railway as well. Indeed at the time it was a question of knowing one's business and also knowing how to converse with all the parties and instilling confidence in them. Effective communication was often the difference between what might be allowed and what might be refused, generally I never had a problem but I was one of the rare breed that read all the publications every single shift from cover to cover and knew what was going on wherever I intended to work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 6:53:13 GMT
We used to have problems between South Ken and Gloucester Road on the District even though there is a physical tunnel between the w/b,circle and the e/b the TAC (was the EWC) would still refuse to book you out as the tunnel was not shown on there diagrams .
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Post by citysig on Jan 25, 2012 23:20:56 GMT
Single-track tube tunnels are still treated as "single-line" railways when it comes to switching off traction current. At normal current off times, it is not unusual for one side to be off whilst the other is still on.
Incidents and other circumstances may alter this arrangement, dependant on the area concerned (e.g. cross-passages and the like).
When it comes to providing protection, I'm afraid the Line Controller these days will treat everyone as "thick as 2 short planks" and protect accordingly. I may know you, I may know you've been on the job 40 years and worked that same section every night for the last 39 years, but I'm afraid my take home pay just isn't up for the gamble.
Twin-track tube tunnels will have both sides discharged at the same time. Composite sections - that is a whole traction current section which is neither twin-track, single track, open section for its entirety - will be treated as if the whole section is a twin-track tunnel, and both sides will be discharged together. This is the reason behind the Gloucester Road-South Ken section. There are exceptions to this if a scenario dictates, but again, I'm not gambling my salary on it.
These rules are in the rule books. I don't currently have access to which one(s) but if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll detail them later in the week.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 25, 2012 23:26:49 GMT
Are the terms 'line-safe' and 'line-clear' still used?
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Post by citysig on Jan 25, 2012 23:42:00 GMT
In a word, yes. And the meanings are still the same.
For those not in the know, the simplified meanings are: Line Clear - the line is absolutely clear of staff and equipment and it is safe for trains to run - used mainly for tunnel sections. Line Safe - the line is safe for trains to run, equipment and staff are clear of the running lines - used for open sections.
They sound more or less the same, and indeed to a certain extent they are, but they are intended to mark the difference between those working in tunnels (which cannot move out of the way of moving trains) and those working in open sections (who can).
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 26, 2012 0:20:39 GMT
Would Baker Street Met to Finchley Road be a Line Clear section then, as it has a mixture of single and double tunnel, and open sections?
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 26, 2012 7:47:07 GMT
Yes I think the Baker Street-Finchley Road tunnels are Line Clear.
I always think of it as- can a track gang stroll safely along the trackside (with protection master!) carrying out minor maintenance?
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