|
|
Post by thc on Dec 18, 2014 11:38:32 GMT
So now it's a spring 2018 opening date and an overall cost of £230m, approximately double that originally approved. "Increasing the scope" for "wider railway benefits" apparently. I wonder what that can mean. THC -- www.croxleyraillink.com/latest-news/croxley_rail_link_update_20141217.htmCroxley Rail Link update 17 December 2014 Progress continues with the Croxley Rail Link, with Hertfordshire County Council now in discussions with London Underground – an experienced rail provider – about the next steps for this important project. The county council has had significant success in getting the scheme through the planning stages to a point where construction can start. All the partners involved in the scheme agree that there is now merit in the rail industry taking a more direct role in delivering the project. Terry Douris, Cabinet Member for Highways, said: "We have been working very hard to deliver this vital railway development for Hertfordshire, which will have so many benefits for the area. We are now in discussions with London Underground about their potential greater involvement, given that they will ultimately own and operate the railway. I would like to thank everyone involved in getting the project to this stage." David Hughes, London Underground’s Director of Major Programme Sponsorship, said: "We are supporting Hertfordshire County Council with their proposal to re-route and extend the Metropolitan line to Watford Junction. The Croxley Rail Link will improve access to public transport for local residents, lead to jobs growth in the area and provide access for Metropolitan line passengers to West Coast mainline National Rail links from Watford Junction station." Dorothy Thornhill, Elected Mayor of Watford, said: "The Croxley Rail Link is a transformational project for the town, and absolutely critical to unlocking Watford’s future economic potential. It is the thread that links Watford’s major development projects together – Watford Health Campus, Ascot Road, Watford Business Park, Watford Junction Interchange and Charter Place Shopping Centre. That’s over £1.2 billion of investment to the benefit of our residents and businesses." The next steps are for the county council to continue discussions with London Underground and for the scheme to receive final funding approval from the Department for Transport, which is expected in March 2015. Construction is due to start in spring 2015. The target date for trains to start running on the new link is spring 2018. The scheme is projected to cost £230m. This cost takes into account inflation and increasing the scope of the scheme in order to provide wider railway benefits. Notes for editors Hertfordshire County Council, London Underground, Network Rail, Watford Borough Council and Three Rivers District Council are working in partnership to deliver the project. Hertfordshire County Council was encouraged by the Department for Transport to take on and progress this railway scheme at a time in the 1990s when the railway industry, both in the public and private sector, was struggling. The county council has had significant success in getting the scheme to a stage where construction can start. |
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Dec 18, 2014 11:50:55 GMT
So now it's a spring 2018 opening date and an overall cost of £230m, approximately double that originally approved. "Increasing the scope" for "wider railway benefits" apparently. I wonder what that can mean.
"We're gonna need a bigger envelope"  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 21:27:53 GMT
I cannot believe this time and time again more funding required and more delay. This not even a brand new railway and not they long I think there is still a risk to will get canned if Govenment decides the additional funding is not justified. Where is the Baffoon Of London when you need him ? On second thoughts no as he would want to convert the line to a Lycraway!!
|
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Dec 18, 2014 21:50:36 GMT
Thought it might be worth reviving the initial post on this thread. Assuming Spring = April, that's 16 month's slippage in 3 years, or 36 months! So the new completion date being another 40 months away, we should actually have the champers out in September 2019. Hope springs eternal, eh?  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 22:15:29 GMT
What a shameful farce, just like the ill thought out St Albams tramway!
If the progress of HS2 is akin to this we be looking at 2100 before it is complete!
We need engineers not vacuous politicians running projects like this with direct central funding.,
Maybe I should write a book about this project or suggest BBC Panorama special in order to expose what is (not) going on.
XF
|
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Dec 19, 2014 0:48:54 GMT
So now it's a spring 2018 opening date and an overall cost of £230m, approximately double that originally approved. "Increasing the scope" for "wider railway benefits" apparently. I wonder what that can mean. This news article from the Watford Observer quotes someone from Hertfordshire County Council: "The wider railway benefits include refurbishing the existing line between Lower High Street and Watford Junction, as well as enhancing the power supplies to both the Metropolitan Line and the Network Rail sections." "The improvements being made will allow more trains to run in the future, not just on the Croxley Rail Link but on the wider train network." |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 1:04:13 GMT
The power supply issues was highlighted years ago don't they keep the minutes of meetings? You can tell that these are full time career politicians who have never delivered anything of value in a timely manner!
|
|
|
|
Post by thc on Dec 19, 2014 9:31:44 GMT
What a shameful farce, just like the ill thought out St Albams tramway! If the progress of HS2 is akin to this we be looking at 2100 before it is complete! We need engineers not vacuous politicians running projects like this with direct central funding., Maybe I should write a book about this project or suggest BBC Panorama special in order to expose what is (not) going on. XF In the nicest possible way, XF, you're speaking out of your hat. The Croxley Rail Link scheme has been programme managed to date on behalf of Hertfordshire County Council by Mouchel, a multi-disciplinary engineering consultancy. That's right, a firm of engineers. Rather than debunk (again) the rest of your anti-local government bluster line-by-line, I'll instead reprint the words of poster 'DTH' on the Watford Observer story linked to above. It's easy to be cynical. But read the actual words. What it says is, "The county council attributed the higher price of the project to 'wider railway benefits' and the cost of inflation.......The wider railway benefits include refurbishing the existing line between Lower High Street and Watford Junction, as well as enhancing the power supplies to both the Metropolitan Line and the Network Rail sections." So what is actually happening is that London Underground and Network Rail are ‘tacking on’ a load of their own work, which is not directly related to the Croxley Rail Link, in order to maximise the benefits from the scheme. When you actually think about, it makes total sense to do all that extra work at the same time. It also makes total sense that LU should be taking over the construction, given their experience in delivering major rail upgrade schemes. It’s just unfair that all this extra cost should be ‘blamed’ on the Croxley Link itself – no, the link is enabling loads of other new investment to go ahead and we should be grateful for that! So please don't bother with the book. Stick instead to building your wonderful model railway layout as that's where your creative strength lies.  THC |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 10:28:59 GMT
What a shameful farce, just like the ill thought out St Albams tramway! If the progress of HS2 is akin to this we be looking at 2100 before it is complete! We need engineers not vacuous politicians running projects like this with direct central funding., Maybe I should write a book about this project or suggest BBC Panorama special in order to expose what is (not) going on. XF In the nicest possible way, XF, you're speaking out of your hat. The Croxley Rail Link scheme has been programme managed to date on behalf of Hertfordshire County Council by Mouchel, a multi-disciplinary engineering consultancy. That's right, a firm of engineers. Rather than debunk (again) the rest of your anti-local government bluster line-by-line, I'll instead reprint the words of poster 'DTH' on the Watford Observer story linked to above. It's easy to be cynical. But read the actual words. What it says is, "The county council attributed the higher price of the project to 'wider railway benefits' and the cost of inflation.......The wider railway benefits include refurbishing the existing line between Lower High Street and Watford Junction, as well as enhancing the power supplies to both the Metropolitan Line and the Network Rail sections." So what is actually happening is that London Underground and Network Rail are ‘tacking on’ a load of their own work, which is not directly related to the Croxley Rail Link, in order to maximise the benefits from the scheme. When you actually think about, it makes total sense to do all that extra work at the same time. It also makes total sense that LU should be taking over the construction, given their experience in delivering major rail upgrade schemes. It’s just unfair that all this extra cost should be ‘blamed’ on the Croxley Link itself – no, the link is enabling loads of other new investment to go ahead and we should be grateful for that! So please don't bother with the book. Stick instead to building your wonderful model railway layout as that's where your creative strength lies. THC Firstly Mouchel went bust @ 2.5 years ago and has since been rescued and this hardly inspires confidence? Hertfordshire County Council hold a lot of money for this project but not all. You have alluded to scope creep for this project which is due to a combination poor requirements, bad scoping and weak project management. There are many other stakeholders in this project each with an axe to grind due to the fragmentation of the UK's railway. Note that the whole North London DC Line system was put in place in less time than the Croxley Link project as a result of joined up thinking even though more than one company was involved. If I am talking out my hat it one fashioned in the image of IK Brunel's top hat  XF |
|
|
|
Post by thc on Dec 19, 2014 12:10:18 GMT
You rightly point out the Balkanisation of the railway as the reason that this has taken so long to deliver. I understand that London Underground was ready to go with a CRL variant in the early 1990s (indeed I have some promotional material dating from the time) until John Major, ably assisted by Sir Steve Robson at D(a)fT, set about shredding the railway industry in the name of privatisation.
Subsequently, in order to get through various RDA, DfT- and other government-led funding processes, HCC as the successor project sponsor has had to bend and twist it out of shape to make the numbers stack up. So we have seen various value engineering exercises, designed to drive as much cost as possible out of the project. I give you reusing Watford Met's ticket gateline at Cassiobridge - and keeping the Watford Met layout for sidings - as but two examples of this. Remember, if this cost-stripping had not been done, the CRL probably wouldn't have got the go-ahead at all!
I would like to see the new CRL project cost profile before levelling too much criticism at HCC or the other players involved, but I would urge anyone ready to jump to condemn them to remember that, all along, they have had to dance to some pretty discordant music - and limbo under some pretty low-set bars - to get the scheme to where it sits today. And for this much credit is due.
THC
|
|
|
|
Post by theblackferret on Dec 19, 2014 13:26:10 GMT
In the nicest possible way, XF, you're speaking out of your hat. The Croxley Rail Link scheme has been programme managed to date on behalf of Hertfordshire County Council by Mouchel, a multi-disciplinary engineering consultancy. That's right, a firm of engineers. Rather than debunk (again) the rest of your anti-local government bluster line-by-line, I'll instead reprint the words of poster 'DTH' on the Watford Observer story linked to above. So please don't bother with the book. Stick instead to building your wonderful model railway layout as that's where your creative strength lies. THC Firstly Mouchel went bust @ 2.5 years ago and has since been rescued and this hardly inspires confidence? Hertfordshire County Council hold a lot of money for this project but not all. You have alluded to scope creep for this project which is due to a combination poor requirements, bad scoping and weak project management. There are many other stakeholders in this project each with an axe to grind due to the fragmentation of the UK's railway. Note that the whole North London DC Line system was put in place in less time than the Croxley Link project as a result of joined up thinking even though more than one company was involved. If I am talking out my hat it one fashioned in the image of IK Brunel's top hat XF I wonder how IK-B would have got on with this? Built & operating already, of course, with brand new City & West End Termini that nobody expected up and running into the bargain, and four feeder branches slotted in, I expect. |
|
roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
|
Post by roythebus on Dec 20, 2014 9:32:43 GMT
I still refer to my earlier post that this link was being talked about when I was a guard at Rickmansworth in 1973!So only 41 years in the planning for what, a mile of railway?
|
|
|
|
Post by burkey on Dec 25, 2014 1:42:11 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 9:58:42 GMT
How much.? Are the rails made out of gold and the new Cassiobury Bridge made out of marble? To many organisations involved, lack of leadership, my view just cut the losses and can this expensive and longing running white elephant project, them sack all those responsible for this farce!
Next the expensive enquiry to tell us what we already know!
XF
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 12:27:49 GMT
Should have left it alone - would have made a nice Heritage Railway Project.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2015 10:33:20 GMT
When they actually start building the Cassio Bridge is when I might believe that this project will not be canned!
|
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Feb 1, 2015 20:58:14 GMT
According to an article in RAIL, construction is due to begin in April. Costs have risen to £230m with the final funding approval expected in March
|
|
|
|
Post by causton on Feb 3, 2015 1:48:29 GMT
I hope it starts soon!!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 18:54:14 GMT
Another date that will be missed again?
|
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Feb 5, 2015 19:02:53 GMT
Another date that will be missed again? They're probably waiting 'til Watford win the premier league to justify the costs |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 22:03:08 GMT
Probably been answered further back but:
What are the plans for the site of Croxley Green station and how much will the new track layout from the bridge intrude into the site?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 12:32:15 GMT
Probably been answered further back but: What are the plans for the site of Croxley Green station and how much will the new track layout from the bridge intrude into the site? I am not aware of any plans however the new line diverges from the old route before the existing bridge. My guess would be the old bridge will be removed with the station site being used for new housing in a similar way to which the old goods yard was. XF |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 7, 2015 20:33:19 GMT
Many disused railways bridge are left in situ unless they are an obstruction of some kind - a height or width limit on a road underneath for example. Removing them can be quite a big job, and the scrap value not enough to pay for the work. They need minimal maintenance once people stop running trains across them.
|
|
|
|
Post by trt on Feb 8, 2015 11:29:18 GMT
The old bridge is quite an iconic structure for views from the canal. I imagine it could be integrated into some form of housing scheme on the site of the old station to provide a scenic walkway towards the new station. s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/73/55/735553_e4d93723.jpg |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 12:52:49 GMT
The problem these days is that sentiment and business are unhappy bedfellows. What company would want to take responsibility for an old bridge that will need a lot of money spending on it at some point in the future.?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 11:25:41 GMT
I'd imagine you'll see that bridge being shipped off in pieces to the scrap merchants once work begins.
- unless some group buys it for use elsewhere but it seems unlikely.
|
|
|
|
Post by arun on Feb 13, 2015 12:06:49 GMT
Melikepie quotes a cost of £230M - The 30mile Borders Railway comes in at £280M. Any ideas why the vast difference in £M/mile?
Arun
|
|
|
|
Post by suncloud on Feb 13, 2015 12:48:32 GMT
- There is a large engineering project required for the viaduct at croxley. The large engineering projects (viaducts/tunnels) are already in place in the borders.
- The borders line will operate diesel trains, Croxley requires much more electrical infrastructure for its fourth rail.
- Signalling is probably much simpler. And will be standardised with the existing railway it is joining up to. (Not case with Underground and Overground signalling)
- There are more stations on the borders line, but the difference isn't that great.
- The croxley link work has to be carried out with due regard to affecting two busy rail lines.
- Croxley will i assume be double track throughout, Borders is mostly single.
- Land costs will be lower in scotland than watford.
There's a few ideas for you arun...
|
|
|
|
Post by trt on Feb 13, 2015 13:03:46 GMT
The cost of a new S8...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 18:24:42 GMT
Watford Met Station is, I think, listed, so cannot be demolished. In any case the old bridge will remain as the tracks into Watford Met and the site will be used for stabling up to 4 or 5 empty trains. The old station may well be used as staff quarters and for signing on and off. By the same token it might be sold off as a restaurant? Meaning staff using a luxury(!!!!) porta-cabin.
|
|
