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Post by Bill on Jul 5, 2005 8:51:58 GMT
To be honest, not that many people are actually looking at the train as it comes in so even on a busy platform the chances are most people wont actually see the incident itself, only the aftermath, which in most cases the body will be under the train and out of sight.
I had a near miss years ago at Oxo where a passenger was standing in the pit waiting for my train! Luckily it was on the south and the approach is slow and you can see the platform for ages before you hit it. As it happened I managed to stop before I got to the bloke, but the passengers on the platform had made no effort to stop him from doing it, they just stood there watching! Had he picked the northbound platform for his little stunt, I would have clobbered the geezer before i'd seen him. Luck of the draw I suppose...
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Post by chris on Jul 5, 2005 9:03:02 GMT
I don't think one under victims will have much railway knowledge or intrest. If they did they'd realise the trauma of what their effects does. I know from experience (a friend of mine was a self harmer and suicidal) that depressed people don't care about themselves, let alone anyone else. Their minds don't work right so please guys, although you understandably feel angry, try to cut them some slack.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2005 18:33:21 GMT
I had a near miss too, at Marble Arch w/b. It was just over two months after my 'sweat day' [first day out on yer own] Just as I approached the station, he sat down on the platform edge. Fortunately, I was 'on the ball', so stopped pretty sharpish. Eventually got the SA and BTP to remove him, but not before he shouted lots of abuse at me. Tell yer one, thing, me heart missed a beat at the time. Trouble is, it all happened so quick. Just two minutes before, I'd left one of the busiest stations on the Central, teeming with punters, no problems. Then all of a sudden you get something completely out of context. I know how people in these circumstances feel; been there, done that.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 3, 2005 21:13:58 GMT
Passengers on the train wouldn't really see the victim of a 'one under' would they. The passengers on the station may panic or leave quickly, especially with children, so may not be able to find out about the leaflet. For these situations it would probably be useful to have a copy of leaflets of this type available in a rack on station platforms/entrances. Possibly also put a section on there about the disruption a one-under causes, if it stopped one person a year who would otherwise have thrown themselves infront of a train then imho it would be worth it. On a similar line of thought, would it be a good idea to have adverts for a service like the Samaritans displayed prominently at platforms. If there is a particular point along the platform where jumpers tend to set off from (I have no idea if there is or isn't) then display it there and opposite there. Chris
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Post by piccadillypilot on Aug 3, 2005 23:13:16 GMT
Possibly also put a section on there about the disruption a one-under causes, if it stopped one person a year who would otherwise have thrown themselves infront of a train then imho it would be worth it. As has been indicated by someone else, people suffering from depression to that degree are not thinking about anything much, except ending their life. If someone is at the point where they are on a platform intending to top themselves then a leaflet or poster is too late. They're certainly not in a fit state to consider other people in any way, shape or form and certainly not the effects of their actions on those who have to clear up the mess. It's really one of those situations where, unless you've been there or perhaps are very close to someone who has, then you don't have a hope in hell of understanding.
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Post by Colin D on Aug 4, 2005 20:11:00 GMT
I never had 'one under' while on the handle, but was involed with 2 as a gaurd on the Central. The first was with my regular 'mate'. We stated our shift out of Hainult on a Sunday P.M crew. As we approched Marble Arch W.B the emergencey brakes were applied and my first thougt was "silly sods hit a stick, on a sunday". When my mate came over the intercom and said "we got one under" I felt myself start to shake and asked if he needed me at the front, He told me asap. I think I panicked and tried to delay the inevitable by cheking the tail lights etc. When I did reach the front the signalman and my MM were still trying to locate the victim. I not sure who saw him first, I know it wasn't me. By now their were a couple more station staff to help. It was decided that someone would go under to make sure the person didn't move (the signalman volenteered) while the MM moved the train forward I went to the rear and applied the brakes once I saw we could get the victim out. Strange thing is that 'something' kicked in and I did what needed to be done along with the other LU staff on hand. In fact we had the body on a stretcher and up on the platform before emergencey services arrived. We took the train to White City got releived, back to Marble Arch where my MM gave his statement and then off home, followed by the three days of 9 to 5, which if I remember right was more like 9 to 11!! The second time I was with a different MM, we were coming to Bethnel Gr EB (normally a pretty fast station) but were being checked after the AM rush. Again the emergency brakes went on, and then released and the train started to roll back and with points at that area I pulled the handle. I tried calling the MM but got no answer so walked through the train to find the MM standing aginst the wall just starring. The poor guy was off work a long time and was never the same after that. I suppose that shows the way this can affect diffrent people. The first person was killed I think he was in his forties, the second was a girl in her late teens she survived.
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Post by tom2506 on Aug 7, 2005 9:57:23 GMT
When it comes to work parties on the track. If a driver of an ATO train isnt paying attention to the road ahead is there any device which will allow the work party to stop the train before they get run over (if there is no place of safety).
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Post by Colin on Aug 7, 2005 11:28:47 GMT
In the same vein - yesterday I saw workers on the DLR track in the shadwell area working while trains were still running, though I did notice all the trains were being driven manually. It got me thinking though - all of their trains are staffed but not usually driven - so what if that member of staff see's something (potentially a one under), how would they stop a train quickly without being in the driving position?
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Post by Tom on Aug 7, 2005 12:27:50 GMT
When it comes to work parties on the track. If a driver of an ATO train isnt paying attention to the road ahead is there any device which will allow the work party to stop the train before they get run over (if there is no place of safety). If there's no place of safety the staff shouldn't be out there - simple as. If the driver of an approaching train doesn't notice staff on the track, there is nothing they can do other than move into a place of safety.
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Post by tom2506 on Aug 7, 2005 12:44:04 GMT
So, if it's nesecery to work in a tunnel, will the work party take a train with them to block the track?
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Post by Tom on Aug 7, 2005 15:20:44 GMT
Yes, you use a train as protection in all line clear areas as per reference manual procedures Ac104-Ac109.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2005 6:56:30 GMT
My grandad had a fairly nasty experience as a passenger at Mile End in the morning rush ages back, where someone hid behind one of the pillars which ran along the length of both the platforms, and ran out from behind it just as the train was approaching, he was killed as it was just too late for the driver to react...
He was asked to give a statement to the BTP, but AFAIK wasn't offered counselling....
Sam
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2005 9:45:05 GMT
So, if it's nesecery to work in a tunnel, will the work party take a train with them to block the track? Trouble with doing this in Traffic Hours is that you can only have the train for 5 minutes. This includes the time travelling from where they get on and off. Normally you will find when work needs to be done, they willl go back and forward a few times using a handful of trains, due to the time span. Much easier to do it at nigh where they can!
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Post by Tom on Aug 12, 2005 10:06:03 GMT
I always found you could generally get a bit more than five minutes, but it all depended on the circumstances. Most of the times I used a train as protection we didn't need it more than about three.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2005 10:08:19 GMT
I always found you could generally get a bit more than five minutes, but it all depended on the circumstances. Most of the times I used a train as protection we didn't need it more than about three. In reality yes, it depends on what the service is like. The WRM says 5 minutes in total though!
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Post by q8 on Aug 12, 2005 15:31:32 GMT
I always found you could generally get a bit more than five minutes, but it all depended on the circumstances. Most of the times I used a train as protection we didn't need it more than about three. ========================================
'ere Tom I was once told that a S/relay could be changed in about 5 minutes. Any truth in that?
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Post by Tom on Aug 12, 2005 16:05:55 GMT
Quite a lot of truth, though it depends on the type. Plug-ins you can change the quickest, fish tanks take a minute or so to lift the old one down and lift the new one up, and QN6's (Victoria Line and other 1970's sites) generally take a few minutes depending on the number of contacts in use.
The fastest I ever changed a relay was about 20 seconds, after I realised pulling the old one out had caused a stick to go back in a driver's face. Oops.
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Post by q8 on Aug 12, 2005 16:14:06 GMT
Tom. Once when we had a signal failure at the starter at Upney westbound where I was foreman. I was asked by the AET to give a hand by doing something very unofficial. To save every train tripping past said signal he told me to ask drivers if they wanted the trainstop lowered and showed me how to do it with a bit of wood in the fishtank and the valve.
Most drivers did as the points were clipped and scotched anyway. I had to that for about half an hour in the freeezing cold while he went get a new relay. There was D.I standing with me too.
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Post by Tom on Aug 12, 2005 18:28:25 GMT
Ah yes - the old trick of 'pegging' the valve. It's often done while doing point maintenance to keep the ground lock energised as you bar the points.
It's quite helpful if you remove it after you finish and are about to test out, as I found out one morning...
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Post by Admin Team on Aug 12, 2005 19:35:41 GMT
My grandad had a fairly nasty experience as a passenger at Mile End in the morning rush ages back, where someone hid behind one of the pillars which ran along the length of both the platforms, and ran out from behind it just as the train was approaching, he was killed as it was just too late for the driver to react... He was asked to give a statement to the BTP, but AFAIK wasn't offered counselling.... Sam If it was a while back it was probably before the days when 'counselling' was seen as either an option or necessary. I think most of us 'older members' will remember when such opportunities were not offered (or even thought of!). I'm not advocating that either is right or wrong - just changed!
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Post by zman on Aug 13, 2005 1:10:02 GMT
I've had two "one unders", or in NY parlance a 12-9 (radio code for Passenger Under Train). Fortunately, both of them lived so my belt is still, thankfully, notchless.
When we have a fatality, we get three days off (not counting regular days off) with pay and we have the option to go to counseling or, if severely shocked and not able to go right back to the road, additional time off with pay. I must say that the NYCTA is very good with employee relations when it comes to these things.
But it's fascinating to see how different employees handle these things. One that I know went right back to work after the three day period. One was so distraught that he had to be reclassified into a security job because he was afraid to operate again. One has had six different one unders and is still driving. You never know how one is going to react to such a shocking incident.
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Post by chris on Aug 21, 2005 8:31:32 GMT
How common are one unders in NY?
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Post by zman on Aug 21, 2005 12:02:51 GMT
On average, one unders happen once a day here. Worst time for one unders has always been during Christmas time when they become a little more frequent.
Did you know that in Japan, if a person commits suicide by train, the family of the deceased not only has to pay the train company for the costs of removal of the remains, but also has to provide nominal compensation to the passengers inconvenienced by the suicide?
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Post by chris on Aug 21, 2005 12:43:12 GMT
I believe they did that because suicides were so common they wanted to deter poeple jumping since their family would be the ones who'd have to clear up the mess. Personally, i think it doesn't really help because the person will probably die anyway so they need not worry. However, I have no facts and figures to support this statement!
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Post by zman on Aug 21, 2005 15:18:59 GMT
I believe they did that because suicides were so common they wanted to deter poeple jumping since their family would be the ones who'd have to clear up the mess. You're quite right. But it's not because of the reason that you've mentioned. It's because the railways have to reimburse it's passengers when they are X amount of minutes late. And when there is a suicide, the railway had to cough up payments. Now, it's the families that do it.
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Post by Colin D on Nov 21, 2005 19:16:30 GMT
Their used to be a "theory" that if you drove with the cab light on you were less likely to encounter a one under. "Theory" being that if the jumper saw a person/face driving they were less likey to jump in front of that train. Is this "theory" still around today?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2005 20:35:13 GMT
Why and how does that theory work???
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Post by Colin on Nov 22, 2005 2:00:13 GMT
Their used to be a "theory" that if you drove with the cab light on you were less likely to encounter a one under. "Theory" being that if the jumper saw a person/face driving they were less likey to jump in front of that train. Is this "theory" still around today? It certainly is, though I prefer to have the cab light off as it makes the signals far easier to see - how likely am I to have a SPAD compared to a one under? Why and how does that theory work??? Ermm, did you not read the full post? "Theory" being that if the jumper saw a person/face driving they were less likey to jump in front of that train.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2005 7:33:35 GMT
I did read the whole thread, but i meant how does the person being able to see the driver's face mean he's less likely to jump??
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Post by chris on Nov 22, 2005 8:00:01 GMT
I did read the whole thread, but i meant how does the person being able to see the driver's face mean he's less likely to jump?? Because it would appear to the 'jumper' that there is a person driving. If you see a train enter a station, then you think "there's a train coming into the station. Tonnes of steel travelling at 30mph." And jump. However, if you saw the T/Op's face, then you'd think "hmm. there's tonnes of steel being operated by that guy." It becomes a bit more personal and the 'jumper' may feel bad about it. (At least, i think that's what it is - i don't study pshychology!)
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