Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 9:12:26 GMT
Yes, it was a posi earth caused by a tin can, not a power failure (in the conventional sense). Service was suspended and traction discharged to remove the can.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 9:45:18 GMT
Yes, it was a posi earth caused by a tin can, not a power failure (in the conventional sense). Service was suspended and traction discharged to remove the can. One tin can resulted in the entire jubilee line being suspended. Epic. And Lu are talking about driverless trains and reduced staffing at stations!!!!
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Nov 27, 2011 9:46:34 GMT
"Costs" are always the reason for things not being done. Politicians and management alike must have this as their favourite word and always gives them sufficient reason for just planning for this afternoon when they should be planning for tomorrow. And in the end, because the work often has to be done eventually, immediate penny pinching turns out to be the most expensive option in the long term.
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Post by jardine01 on Nov 27, 2011 10:02:55 GMT
Jubilee line is running with Severe delays this morning due to a faulty train at Stamore and No service between Green Park and London bridge. These trains are so unreliable compared to the 1995 stock i hope they get it sorted out for the games next year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2011 11:56:31 GMT
All bodes well for the Olympics
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Post by uzairjubilee on Nov 27, 2011 14:01:23 GMT
When they say a faulty train, do they mean something is physically wrong with the train, or has a problem occurred between communications with the train and the system controlling it.
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 27, 2011 15:39:59 GMT
Yes, it was a posi earth caused by a tin can, not a power failure (in the conventional sense). Service was suspended and traction discharged to remove the can. As yes you can blame the safety elf for that, in my days as a lineman a 2lb hammer and one or two quick swipes would free the can, usually with a nice trail of fireworks, clearing the earth but these days the traction has to be discharged first!
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Post by jardine01 on Nov 27, 2011 16:33:03 GMT
I think a faulty train could mean anything i think it is probally a communcations problem with the train not talking with the signals or the control centre. Its funny how since TBTC trains have been breaking down quite frequently. Under the old signaling system trains were pritty reliable but the signaling was not! I think the whole underground system will be very busy especally the Central line!
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Nov 27, 2011 16:36:45 GMT
Yes, it was a posi earth caused by a tin can, not a power failure (in the conventional sense). Service was suspended and traction discharged to remove the can. As yes you can blame the safety elf for that, in my days as a lineman a 2lb hammer and one or two quick swipes would free the can, usually with a nice trail of fireworks, clearing the earth but these days the traction has to be discharged first! That isn't what causes the wide effect. 95 and 96 stock is sensitive to power supply issues, there is a piece of equipment called the interference current monitoring unit (ICMU). Earths on the traction current system will cause the ICMU to trip out, which will cause the train to effectively shut down. If lucky, it will be able to coast to the next station. The train operator is able to trip/reset the train, which MAY bring it back, but if the earth fault is persistent then the train will most likely shut down again. Remembering the infamous witches hat incident on the Northern Line, the reason this had such a wide effect was that all of the affected trains were northbound (it was near the close of traffic) and the Northern Line generally rises towards Golders Green / East Finchley. Potentially every train in the affected sectionalisation section can be involved, this will normally be both directions. These sections are quite large and hence a lot of trains will be affected. TBTC does not help as you start to run in to issues involving track access (in the open sections), protection, every train throughout the line has to have its trip manually edited. Then when you do get going again, look forward to VOBCs having to be reset, non-communicating trains etc. So look forward to more whole-line suspensions on the Jubilee and Northern Lines!
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Post by jardine01 on Nov 27, 2011 16:44:47 GMT
Lets hope it is a bit better when the Northern goes TBTC Good luck!
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Nov 27, 2011 17:23:47 GMT
There should be more sections with a juice rail gap, maybe? Also: when did the witches hat incident happen? Was it caused by the object?
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Post by t697 on Nov 27, 2011 17:24:32 GMT
95 and 96 stock is sensitive to power supply issues, there is a piece of equipment called the interference current monitoring unit (ICMU). Earths on the traction current system will cause the ICMU to trip out, which will cause the train to effectively shut down. If lucky, it will be able to coast to the next station. The train operator is able to trip/reset the train, which MAY bring it back, but if the earth fault is persistent then the train will most likely shut down again. Remembering the infamous witches hat incident on the Northern Line, the reason this had such a wide effect was that all of the affected trains were northbound (it was near the close of traffic) and the Northern Line generally rises towards Golders Green / East Finchley. Potentially every train in the affected sectionalisation section can be involved, this will normally be both directions. These sections are quite large and hence a lot of trains will be affected. Having a technical interest in the 96TS problem, I was surprised to hear that NL 95TS can suffer the same. There is a subtle difference which I won't elaborate here as it takes too long! . Are you sure the Northern line incident you mention actually caused multiple ICMU trips? That would be interesting information.
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 27, 2011 18:58:03 GMT
There should be more sections with a juice rail gap, maybe? Also: when did the witches hat incident happen? Was it caused by the object? There are more than enough juice gaps, however, there are few sectionalisation gaps, many juice sections are within a sectionalisation section. For instance take the Picc line which has just 5 sectionalisation sections, 8,9,10,11 & 34 IIRC and two of those (10 & 11) are shared with the District line between South Kensington, Ealing Broadway and Rayners Lane! Back in the 1980s section 1 covered Baker Street to Amersham, Chesham, Watford, Uxbridge and Stanmore on the Met & Jub so an earth fault affected dozens of trains on both lines. Circa 1987ish we (I did the line controllers and HQ controller indication rewiring at Baker Street, HOH and 55, Broadway) split that single section into Jubilee section 1 Baker Street-Stanmore, Met Section 1 Baker Street to Harrow-on-the-Hill and from HOH split again into sections 38 to Uxbridge and section 37 to Amersham, Chesham & Watford AFAIR. This was as a result of trains with an earth fault being almost impossible to locate sometimes as they travelled around. At that time the Jubilee had just two sectionalisation sections, the other being section 35 Baker Street to Charing Cross. I have no idea how many sections were added with JLE.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Nov 27, 2011 21:19:12 GMT
95 and 96 stock is sensitive to power supply issues, there is a piece of equipment called the interference current monitoring unit (ICMU). Earths on the traction current system will cause the ICMU to trip out, which will cause the train to effectively shut down. If lucky, it will be able to coast to the next station. The train operator is able to trip/reset the train, which MAY bring it back, but if the earth fault is persistent then the train will most likely shut down again. Remembering the infamous witches hat incident on the Northern Line, the reason this had such a wide effect was that all of the affected trains were northbound (it was near the close of traffic) and the Northern Line generally rises towards Golders Green / East Finchley. Potentially every train in the affected sectionalisation section can be involved, this will normally be both directions. These sections are quite large and hence a lot of trains will be affected. Having a technical interest in the 96TS problem, I was surprised to hear that NL 95TS can suffer the same. There is a subtle difference which I won't elaborate here as it takes too long! . Are you sure the Northern line incident you mention actually caused multiple ICMU trips? That would be interesting information. Yes this was the official technical reason given for the trains stalling. The incident took place on 31st October last year (halloween). Strangely enough, LU took little criticism over this one, unlike some of the more long-drawn-out incidents elsewhere, the various decisions were made promptly and all passengers (including some very drunk!) were out in barely over an hour after the incident kicked off, despite relying on minimal staff numbers.
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Post by plasmid on Nov 28, 2011 2:58:19 GMT
No service between Green Park and London bridge. Due to planned Engineering works quite obviously... I like the way you placed that cleverly with the delay bit, ever thought about studying to become a politician?
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Nov 28, 2011 16:03:38 GMT
Section 35 - Fleet Section 37 - Far North Could Section 36 be the Heathrow loop Just a guess! Perhaps there is a list online if there are only a few dozen sections? Edit: Cleared things up!
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Post by railtechnician on Nov 28, 2011 16:56:38 GMT
Section 35 - Fleet Section 37 - Far North Section 36 - Heathrow loop Just a guess! Is there a compiled list somewhere online? Just a guess at what exactly?
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 3, 2011 21:14:08 GMT
My understanding is that, apart from Finchley Road, the sectionalisation gaps on the Jubilee Line have been removed to allow regenerated current to be shared by more trains over longer sections. This is a laudable idea but it also has the effect of allowing earth faults to be detected by all trains trains over half the line.
Then, if an earth fault is detected, the HSCB opens on each motor car, effectively stalling the train and disconnecting the supply to the air compressor (amongst other things). But, the HSCB is air operated so, without the compressor, there's no air so, the HSCB cannot be closed so, when current finally gets restored, none of the trains can restart until someone comes along with a foot pump to "pump up" the HSCB air supply.
I sometimes wonder whatever happened to systems engineering on the Underground. Someone isn't watching the shop. But, perhaps I am completely wrong about all this?
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 4, 2011 5:51:32 GMT
My understanding is that, apart from Finchley Road, the sectionalisation gaps on the Jubilee Line have been removed to allow regenerated current to be shared by more trains over longer sections. This is a laudable idea but it also has the effect of allowing earth faults to be detected by all trains trains over half the line. Then, if an earth fault is detected, the HSCB opens on each motor car, effectively stalling the train and disconnecting the supply to the air compressor (amongst other things). But, the HSCB is air operated so, without the compressor, there's no air so, the HSCB cannot be closed so, when current finally gets restored, none of the trains can restart until someone comes along with a foot pump to "pump up" the HSCB air supply. I sometimes wonder whatever happened to systems engineering on the Underground. Someone isn't watching the shop. But, perhaps I am completely wrong about all this?I think you're correct, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater about 25 years ago when the idea of outsourcing all engineering began in earnest!
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Dec 4, 2011 10:33:13 GMT
Tubeprune's post,while certainly true,is flabbergasting. Why don't they supply a little air compressor (a few quid fro Argos) run from the emergency lighting circuit (say) and easily switchable by the T/O? Or is there a compelling reason for a foot-pump to have to be fetched from a secure location...
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