|
Post by ianvisits on Jul 4, 2011 19:42:34 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 0:01:38 GMT
I see that, like some other drawings (including some issued by the Underground), the tunnels south of the junction are wrongly labelled. It was always tempting to think that the eastern set of tunnels went to the City branch.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 7:37:25 GMT
Two more cutaways HERE and HERE. I'd be interested to see more detailed plans of the platform tunnels and pedestrian subway tunnels. The plan is to divide the Northern Line into two separate branches, which would significantly improve capacity and reliability, but requires rebuilding of Camden Town. I'd be intrested in seeing a 'before and after'.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2011 15:14:23 GMT
I don't know about platform tunnels and passageways but the LT Museum poster collection has a couple of very good pictures of the complex running tunnel layout. These tunnels were all built, by hand, between 70 to 90 feet underground when the City & South London Railway was connected to the Charing Cross & Euston Railway. www.ltmcollection.org/posters/poster/poster.html?_IXSR_=8CpR4Lu47Os&_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1983/4/1647&IXsummary=results/results&IXsearch=camden%20town&_IXFIRST_=1Don't forget that link should be all in one line in your browser search bar although it should be 'clickable' in this post. Camden town was also the home of one of the deep level shelters. These were 2 x 25 foot platform tunnels. (No running tunnels were ever built). Access to them if via a closed off subway from the ordinary platforms. They were used by the military and by the museums during the war. The deep level shelters exist under most of the Northern Line tunnels from Stockwell up to Belsize Park via CX.
|
|
slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
Posts: 1,480
|
Post by slugabed on Sept 27, 2011 17:46:28 GMT
Easy for me to say this,but I have long thought that this was a lost opportunity. Ingenious thouh the layout certainly is,it would have been better to have bifurcated the S/B runnels North of Camden Town station,so that there would genuinely be a "West End" platform and a "City" platform,as there are "Barnet" and "Edgware" platforms on the N/B. Presumably they considered and rejected this??
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2011 18:30:22 GMT
At the time I have no doubt that they had their reasons slugabed. I expect there was a lot of in house, political pressure to try to maintain the individual lines own personalities as much as possible. Your reasoning could equally be applied at Kennington but overall it seems that they were keen to make just one line with a joint service to all destinations. Circumstances and perspective would have been very different then. Ignoring all of that Camden Town junction was a marvellous bit of engineering.
As a matter of historical interest if you go south from the Hampstead branch as you leave the platform the line divides in a step plate junction. City branch to the left, Charing Cross branch straight on. Above each of the two tunnels there was, when I was a driver, a sign which confused me for a long time. The one over the City line tunnel said “City Line Southbound”, while the one over the Charing Cross branch said “Hampstead Southbound”. It was not until I started looking at the history of the line that I realised why the CX sign didn't make immediate sense.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2011 18:37:58 GMT
I should add that Camden Town, when first built was a lift station. Escalators were a later addition. The shafts are still there and for may years the old Station Masters office was at the bottom of one half of the diameter of one. I believe that the remaining 1 ½ were used as ventilation shafts which was the normal thing to do. They are directly under the current booking hall floor.
|
|
|
Post by mikebuzz on Sept 27, 2011 18:53:27 GMT
As a matter of historical interest if you go south from the Hampstead branch as you leave the platform the line divides in a step plate junction. City branch to the left, Charing Cross branch straight on. Above each of the two tunnels there was, when I was a driver, a sign which confused me for a long time. The one over the City line tunnel said “City Line Southbound”, while the one over the Charing Cross branch said “Hampstead Southbound”. It was not until I started looking at the history of the line that I realised why the CX sign didn't make immediate sense. Well Hampstead refers to Hampstead tube which must have been known as Hampstead Line, and I understand the C&SLR was already being referred to the City Line by the late 20's. I guess calling the city route Bank branch was to avoid confusion. Or did it increase it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2011 19:05:13 GMT
The Charing Cross and Hampstead Railway to give it its proper name.
It confused me at first as, from a drivers point of view the City sign was correct i.e. it was the pipe taking you to the City. As Hampstead had been several stations earlier it appeared that the sign over the CX branch tunnel was wrong. As I said, it was only when I started exploring the history of 'my line' that I realised why the sign said what it did. I have some pictures somewhere. Although not very good I will try to publish them some time.
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 27, 2011 20:01:09 GMT
I would expect that before the City branch was plumbed in there were already two southbound platform tunnels at Camden Town - that seemed to be the standard arrangement at convergences: so that trains waiting for the junction to clear could do so in the platform (look at South Ken which would have had two w/b and one e/b, and also Baker Street when there were two Bakerloo branches). What was already a complex tunnelling job would have been more so if they had rearranged it for separate City and CX platforms southbound.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2011 7:22:37 GMT
So what is the latest on the Camden station redevelopment? Is it progressing, or is there an alternative plan being developed which doesn't necessitate the demolition of so many buildings there? My understanding is that they can't separate the two lines until they create new interchange/circulating areas between the platform tunnels. I'd love to see a diagram of these, rather than the running lines through the junctions.
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Sept 28, 2011 14:22:58 GMT
So what is the latest on the Camden station redevelopment? Is it progressing, or is there an alternative plan being developed which doesn't necessitate the demolition of so many buildings there? My understanding is that they can't separate the two lines until they create new interchange/circulating areas between the platform tunnels. I'd love to see a diagram of these, rather than the running lines through the junctions. I think it has been shelved indefinitely, until someone comes up with another idea... I think the Northern Line can already be split up - theoretically, not physically. (there's also the safety edge, and the King's Cross loop saving money on stock deliveries from West Ruislip - <first Central reverser> - EBR - KX loop)
|
|
|
Post by angelislington on Apr 6, 2012 9:22:42 GMT
Just out of interest, the poster is actually inaccurate. The lines that emerge on the bottom left are actually the City branch, and the ones on the right are actually the CX branch. The reason for this is that Euston and Kings Cross on the City branch are east/west from each other, rather than north/south. That means the line has to swing out west in order to come back round for Euston and be in the right direction to head east for Kings Cross, without a complicated or nasty curve. In doing so, it swings quite a way around Mornington Crescent station. Incidentally, this also means that Mornington Crescent is also on the wrong side of the tube map/journey planner, being shown on the left of the two branches from Euston to Camden Town. Here's a track diag from my files. I'm sorry, I can't credit it or say where it's from, I've lost that info. I have a bmp version at 1.5Mb if anyone would like it.
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Apr 6, 2012 10:17:42 GMT
Could it be from "Handling London's underground traffic " by JP Thomas? From memory that had a few nice diagrams in it.
|
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Apr 6, 2012 10:46:50 GMT
Could it be from "Handling London's underground traffic " by JP Thomas? From memory that had a few nice diagrams in it. D**n: why remind me of a book that's still boxed up! It's bad enough having to search for all my Festiniog stuff..
|
|
Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
|
Post by Ben on Apr 6, 2012 11:10:56 GMT
Hehe, sorry! Good read though; it should be something considered just as relevant today as back then. I'm suprised it hasn't been scanned online yet... 1928 is it?
|
|
|
Post by angelislington on Apr 6, 2012 11:24:06 GMT
Could it be from "Handling London's underground traffic " by JP Thomas? From memory that had a few nice diagrams in it. Quite possibly, although due to having our entire book collection boxed up awaiting us getting shelves in the study, I'm unable to confirm or deny! All I know is that it was drawn round about the time the crossover was planned and executed, so 1920s. It's occurred to me that The Eagle diagram is also labelled wrongly!
|
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Apr 6, 2012 22:13:36 GMT
And of course one of the earliest diagrams (from "the Iron Road", pub 1925) also had the southern branches wrongly labelled - maybe that's where the error in the later drawings came from.....
|
|