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Post by ducatisti on Jun 29, 2011 10:59:05 GMT
How big an operation is this, especially in tunnels?
I would imagine it is a non-trivial operation, and presumably has a minimum length one can change at any one time?
I am always mildly surprised how much bullhead remains on the network. at Finchley central, all the running lines seem to be bullhead, and the reversing siding at the south end (very rarely used) is flatbottom...
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 29, 2011 12:23:51 GMT
Can be a problem in tube tunnels as there is a slight height issue. Clearance in the 12' tunnels can be tight as it is.
The fixings for flat bottom are different too. Bullhead is held in rain chairs and wedged in with either timber or metal keys.
Flatbottom rail is placed on 'pads' and held down with pandrol clips.
There is a special joining piece that can join flatbottom to bullhead rail, look out for it.....
The other issue is that much of the new flatbottomed rail is laid on concrete sleepers meaning the whole bed requires relaying!
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 29, 2011 17:51:55 GMT
Can be a problem in tube tunnels as there is a slight height issue. Clearance in the 12' tunnels can be tight as it is. The fixings for flat bottom are different too. Bullhead is held in rain chairs and wedged in with either timber or metal keys. Flatbottom rail is placed on 'pads' and held down with pandrol clips. There is a special joining piece that can join flatbottom to bullhead rail, look out for it..... The other issue is that much of the new flatbottomed rail is laid on concrete sleepers meaning the whole bed requires relaying! Of course there are no flatbottom chairlock points so where flatbottom rail is fitted bullhead has to remain in place for the chairlock units. Ealing common is a good place to see it, right outside the IMR. replacing the chairlocks with flatbottom 4' points or another type is a very expensive exercise. Other than that I don't think there is anything too special about replacing bullhead with flatbottom in tunnels or anywhere else. Generally it's much the same as a good old tunnel recon job as once done night after night by the P-Way recon gangs. As for joining rail there are are 'lift' fishplates to join rail different types and to account for wear in like types.
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Post by ducatisti on Jun 30, 2011 8:32:21 GMT
do you need to replace sleepers as well? (presumably this can depen on the height issue in tunnel) Seen one of the changeover sections, it was on the southbound platform on the Paddington Bakerloo line.
So if it's not too big a job, why might there be quite a lot of what looks very new bullhead rail about?
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 30, 2011 9:52:21 GMT
do you need to replace sleepers as well? (presumably this can depen on the height issue in tunnel) Seen one of the changeover sections, it was on the southbound platform on the Paddington Bakerloo line. So if it's not too big a job, why might there be quite a lot of what looks very new bullhead rail about? There's a difference between rerailing and reconditioning, shifting from bullhead to flatbottom in tunnels is generally going to be reconditioning i.e. ballast removal, gunning out of the old trackbed, new trackbed concrete and drainage, new concrete sleepers. Rerailing is more about changing like for like so typically replacing or transposing rails, changing the odd railchair, perhaps repositioning railchairs to get better purchase and sometimes replacing a worn timber in extreme cases. Of course everything wears in the tunnel over time and when I began my LT career reconditioning in the tunnels was like painting the forth bridge, a never ending renewal process across the deep level tube. Of course there would always be a signals presence on hand to take possession on the section being renewed and to remake the track connections, repack trainstops to suit the new gauge etc. I never worked on a recon job personally but I worked in and around them at times during resignalling works on the Northern line in the 1970s and jobs such as assisting the P-Way Chief Inspector (basically carrying a Tilley lamp to illuminate whatever he wanted to see) walking through recon sites and through the two halves of the associated ballast train to get from one end of the site to the other. The last replacement of bullhead with flatbottom that I saw was at Earls Court Picc when I had to deal with a few signal maintenance issues. AFAIR it was all new sleepers, I'm really not sure what preparations were undertaken to lay them as I saw only the last night of the job and as the last few Pandrol clips were being knocked in but it all looked very new and I expect it was a full recon job but that was about 10 years ago IIRC. Techniques and working methods have moved on so much, you don't tend to see gangs of P-Way shouldering baskets of ballast out of the tunnels anymore, the privateers that do large track renewals are very machine minded and there is a lot less manual graft than there used to be. AFAIK LUL/Metronet/Tube Lines still do small rerailing jobs and I worked on lots of those on the Picc transposing rails, renewing rails, renewing stocks & switches and rail crossings in the late 1990s and until 2001. Lots of measuring, remeasuring and cutting, rail pulling etc before I could rebond the affected track circuits and test the signalling. This was all pretty much manual graft in the same old tradition with some mechanical aids to carry rails, more modern drilling machines instead of the old hand operated 'bikes' etc and some mechanical saws too although they were difficult to use in some tunnels and often failed before doing the job. No doubt things have moved on even more since I last worked in a tunnel 10 years ago.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jun 30, 2011 10:06:02 GMT
I keep being in awe at my late grandfather who was a P-way Foreman Ganger on the UndergrounD. He started I think in 1929 and was a WW1 veteran. It must have been hard, back-breaking work in the tunnels at the time with no or little machinery.
I gather that my grandparents moved to Hounslow West in 1935, so Grandad was near the station. However, he was given a second phone in the house (on an extension) upstairs by the GPO because it was deemed that he had to be able to respond to emergencies.
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Post by plasmid on Jun 30, 2011 11:14:39 GMT
I don't think it's that big of an operation, what is a bigger operation in tunnels is the change of wooden sleepers to conrete ones.
At Bank they've replaced the track and put in new wooden sleepers (Which I thought was quite odd), but the ride is still uncomfortable because of the sleepers. If they ever bother to put in Concrete sleepers then hopefully the ride will become smoother an bit more quieter...
There are some videos of track replacement on YouTube on the Central Line, have a look.
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Post by railtechnician on Jun 30, 2011 11:32:40 GMT
I keep being in awe at my late grandfather who was a P-way Foreman Ganger on the UndergrounD. He started I think in 1929 and was a WW1 veteran. It must have been hard, back-breaking work in the tunnels at the time with no or little machinery. I gather that my grandparents moved to Hounslow West in 1935, so Grandad was near the station. However, he was given a second phone in the house (on an extension) upstairs by the GPO because it was deemed that he had to be able to respond to emergencies. When I began with LT in 1977 all the engineering work was hard graft at the sharp end. We used to use hand tools for most jobs including drilling holes, belly braces for equipment racks, rawlplug jumpers and hammers for masonry and ratchet and cramps for rails and for bigger holes in masonry club hammers and 1"x12" chisels or for instance drilling through platforms for cable access a 1"x36" chisel and sledgehammer. We thought our life was easy on signals compared to the P-Way who really did sweat doing back breaking graft all year round on recon and rerailing jobs. The P-Way of course did have pneumatic drills but they had to deliver the compressor to site and park it on the end of the platform for the duration of the job, run air lines etc, but just getting it on and off the train was real graft taking a gang of skilled men quite a while to slew it on old sleepers using bars. It's not that there weren't power tools around but that they were so cumbersome requiring heavy isolating transformers which nobody wanted to carry to site and back again every shift, in those days we pretty much had to carry whatever we needed by hand as we went to and from site by train, only the heaviest items were delivered for us! Back then you also had the fluffers who meticulously cleaned the track within station limits by hand on their hands and knees, they were remarkable women working up to their necks in the tunnel dust just as we did, no tunnel cleaning train back then either and the deep level tube was very bad. Workers on the system today would probably not want to graft the way that we once used too and I'm quite certain that I had it easier than those who went before me. At one time staff had to do one year on nights before being issued overalls and it was apparently custom and practice to return staff to day work after 11 months before reverting them to night duties! H&S has changed an awful lot for the better although I will never accept that it is all good!
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Post by ducatisti on Jun 30, 2011 12:28:46 GMT
So why would they, eg re-rail chunks of the nothern line (charing X branch) with bullhead, when they knocked out the [whatever the rail fixings were sitting on] and replaced/reinstalled then...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 20:56:11 GMT
There is some video of the 'fluffers' here from the BBC documentary 'Heart of the Angel'
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 22:27:04 GMT
Haha, just watching that from part 1, good sense of humour from the staff
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