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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 23:25:00 GMT
Seeing as the new SSL contract will basically include a version of TBTC by another name, I just wanted to ask how the driver knows at where they must reach the target speed. In the case of the Central line the driver knows where all the marker boards are and if it was a DTG system then I'd have thought "Distance to go" would be displayed in the cab. With full moving block singalling though, how does the driver know how far they can proceed at the speed at all?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 6:13:16 GMT
AIUI TBTC provides a DTG indication. DTG just works in a different manner totally, using curve overlaps rather than a trip distance.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 16:26:13 GMT
With "moving block" signalling, there's still a "distance to go", which is generally the information that's actually transmitted to the train, which then calculates a braking curve based on it. What "moving block" means is that distance to go is updated much more frequently, even continuously.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 16:37:27 GMT
With "moving block" signalling, there's still a "distance to go", which is generally the information that's actually transmitted to the train, which then calculates a braking curve based on it. What "moving block" means is that distance to go is updated much more frequently, even continuously. With Seltrac TBTC the distance to go is issued to the train; with the Westinghouse DTG system I believe information is issued to the train which then calculates the distance. Not sure about Cityflo. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 16:41:01 GMT
DTG uses fixed blocks and hence knows where a train is to a much rougher level than TBTC, that's the difference.
tridentalx, CityFlo 650 is CBTC, which is what SelTrac is. You could call it TBTC if you wished. AIUI it works in much a similar method.
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Post by causton on May 15, 2011 22:34:06 GMT
How close can trains get under the moving block signalling? For example, if I was driving at a very low speed towards a stationary train in front, how close could I get to it?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 22:37:48 GMT
How close can trains get under the moving block signalling? For example, if I was driving at a very low speed towards a stationary train in front, how close could I get to it? I think the limit on the Jubilee is 80 metres or thereabout (both 75 and 95 spring to mind) |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 15, 2011 22:38:55 GMT
How close can trains get under the moving block signalling? For example, if I was driving at a very low speed towards a stationary train in front, how close could I get to it? I think the limit on the Jubilee is 80 metres or thereabout (both 75 and 95 spring to mind) Where did you get that information from, please? |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2011 22:53:29 GMT
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on May 16, 2011 8:16:21 GMT
Ta very much - I hadn't got round to reading that very post!
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 5, 2011 16:17:19 GMT
Will many drivers drive in TBTC manual when you think of it? For example on the Jubilee line I have not been on any TBTC manual trains at all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2011 20:19:56 GMT
As an example, If you go east of Leytonstone or west of White City on the central line, you'l see alot some manual driving in the summer so they can keep the cab doors open. The same may happen on the jubilee. I wonder though, when new train ops will eventually be recruited whether they will have to so all their road training in manual mode? I assume training new drivers on the jubilee hasnt happened since legacy signalling days because of the job cuts.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 5, 2011 22:11:24 GMT
I would imagine they will drive in PM when they are learning to drive. Yes i have seen many Central line trains driving manually both in tunnel ( round Gants hill) i rode on a manual central line train between Epping and Leytonstone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2011 10:20:50 GMT
How close can trains get under the moving block signalling? For example, if I was driving at a very low speed towards a stationary train in front, how close could I get to it? I think the limit on the Jubilee is 80 metres or thereabout (both 75 and 95 spring to mind) Interesting, as it is 50m on the DLR which also has Seltrac. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 6, 2011 12:58:25 GMT
Interesting, as it is 50m on the DLR which also has Seltrac. <2d> Ratio of train weight to braking force being lighter:same probably explains that. </2d> |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2011 20:28:55 GMT
I would imagine they will drive in PM when they are learning to drive. Yes i have seen many Central line trains driving manually both in tunnel ( round Gants hill) i rode on a manual central line train between Epping and Leytonstone. With driverless trains being introduced by 2021 according to yesterday's paper is it more likely there be less manual driving as tbtc is rolled out? It seems LU wants to get rid of tube drivers and replace them with attendants. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Oct 25, 2011 22:13:22 GMT
It seems LU wants to get rid of tube drivers and replace them with attendants. Except of course they will still have to ride in the front cab to avoid killing jumpers etc. And they will still have to know what to do to get a train moving again if it stalls. So they'll still have to be properly trained. And paid to retain that knowledge. And that takes time and money, so why not call them train-operators?? And it's NOT the same as the DLR which is almost all overground - - but even then someone (a faller not a jumper) has been killed by a train coming into a station and not 'noticing' a person on the track. |
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Post by citysig on Oct 26, 2011 0:40:49 GMT
It seems LU wants to get rid of tube drivers and replace them with attendants. Whilst LU will obviously strive to reach such a goal, it is never going to happen before 2021, and not quite in the way the newspaper in question / leaked report suggests. Of course, the Central, Jubilee and Victoria lines are already well on track, but even then the person on the front is, for some time yet, still going to be much more than a mere "attendant." Even if we take the leaked report as being a "controlled leak" with certain aspirations included within it, many of the improvements will take years and costs millions. |
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 26, 2011 11:59:30 GMT
I think this tube fully Automated by 2021 is not going to happen. It takes around 2 years to install ATO take the Jubilee line for example it was supposed to be ATO by December 2009 It did not go ATO till January 2011 and Dollis to Stanmore in June 2011. Getting rid of drivers is not going to do down well. The tube could not be fully driveless the difference is the DLR was designed for Automatic operation from day one the tube was not! Whats going to happen if a train breakes down with 1,000 people on it in tempartures of 40c with no driver?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 12:49:55 GMT
I don't think it will be driverless but it will be like on the Victoria line. Then they might be called attendants or whatever and paid a lot less.
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Post by trt on Oct 26, 2011 12:54:02 GMT
Hm, but if they run more trains closer together, won't that mean more train operating staff?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 13:14:55 GMT
Judging from a leaked document I've seen they want to reduce depot establishments (drivers) so I don't know they are up to.
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Post by trt on Oct 26, 2011 13:19:33 GMT
Have a robotic train tag along behind a crewed train, perhaps? Double the trains, same number of drivers?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 15:05:46 GMT
One thing I've noticed on for example on other modes of transport - for example buses and trams is that a lot of people have a licence to operate the vehicle. Maybe this is how it will work and everyone will have a go at being a train driver (attendent) and the next day could be doing another job like cleaning or customer service?
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Post by craig on Oct 26, 2011 15:15:43 GMT
Except of course they will still have to ride in the front cab to avoid killing jumpers etc. And they will still have to know what to do to get a train moving again if it stalls. So they'll still have to be properly trained. And paid to retain that knowledge. And that takes time and money, so why not call them train-operators?? It's possible that in the future they wouldn't be trained to drive the train at full line speed though only at slow speed in an emergency. It's also possible that in the future sensors could be used to allow the train to stop in an automatically in an emergency and installing extra platform edge doors will result in less need for that. |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Oct 26, 2011 15:51:57 GMT
Make that every station, and half-height doors on overground stations/subsurface stations to prevent wasting money...
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Post by jardine01 on Oct 26, 2011 19:51:05 GMT
Probally by 2021 all lines will be ATO but hopefully with drivers still in the cabs as back up.
However there is bound to be more strikes if the train attendents are paid allot less
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Post by br7mt on Oct 26, 2011 20:16:59 GMT
The Bombardier Cityflo system has line of sight detectors mounted on the front of the train, so you have to question whether drivers need to sit in the cab any more especially under ATO control.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by craig on Oct 26, 2011 20:38:59 GMT
The Bombardier Cityflo system has line of sight detectors mounted on the front of the train, so you have to question whether drivers need to sit in the cab any more especially under ATO control. And from what I've read Bombardier's Cityflo 650 system is basically Seltrac TBTC in all but name it shouldn't be that difficult to install these on the Jubilee and Northern. |
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Post by br7mt on Oct 26, 2011 20:50:37 GMT
Like any computer based ATP / ATO system it will share the base set of logic in terms of speed profile etc, but the implementation is very different. Cityflo uses CBTC i.e. is radio based, where SelTrac uses TBTC i.e. inductance loops for train positioning. I'm not sure if the SelTrac family of systems has a line of sight detector, anyway I suspect the Jubilee and Northern won't change now until the rolling stock needs replacing.
Regards,
Dan
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