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Post by snoggle on Jan 22, 2017 1:17:34 GMT
I have not seen any sign that proposed ITT has translated into firm orders. However as the paper acknowledged there was sufficient existing 1995 stock to provide some service to the Battersea extension, the lack of an order is no surprise especially given the current "no fare increases" policy. I somehow doubt extra trains will be ordered any time soon, and TFL are building up problems for themselves as they will surely miss the chance to purchase extra trains for both lines at affordable prices. I assume that by now a lot of the original Alsthom production line facilities (and experience) have been re-tasked. Meantime anyone traveling on rush hour Northern services will know they are already unpleasantly full and the line needs extra capacity now. Looking back to the last time a forward programme of project approvals was published then we should see two papers coming forward in the first half of this year. One called "Northern Line World Class Capacity" (due March) and the second "Additional trains for Northern and Jubilee lines" (due June). Unfortunately the level of transparency around project progress and spend has gone backwards since the new Mayoralty started. While I doubt LU have had to kill both projects off the back of the fares freeze impacts I suspect they have been partly descoped. Neither Jubilee or Northern is easy to upgrade as there are constraints on both lines which a tph boosting upgrade would have to resolve. The easiest way to scale back expenditure is to take a more conservative view on the level of tph you want to upgrade to. The key thing to watch for is whether the "new" trains contract has options in it for extra trains at a later date. That at least would allow a second stage if funding materialised. If there are no options then both lines will have capped capacity for a long time (as you say) because I can't imagine the jigs for the trains would be retained if there were no contract options possible. I can already hear the "oh Crossrail will relieve the Jubilee Line link to Docklands and Stratford" and "Crossrail 2 will relieve the worst overcrowding on the Northern Line" excuses being rolled out if there is a scaling back in ambition.  |
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 22, 2017 2:51:32 GMT
not sure how you make the middle platforms at East Finchley accessible from the south. The layout was designed for Northern Heights and the tracks in the middle go up to the depot whilst the other tracks ascend from/descend to the tunnels. From what I understand, it's technically feasible - although I imagine a fair bit of work will be required. The difference in levels isn't actually that great until some way south of the Great North Road bridge. If you go here www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/and search for East Finchley station you will find a shot that shows the slopes and that the bridge gets in the way |
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Post by Chris M on Jan 22, 2017 11:06:33 GMT
Carto.Metro indicates that there used to be crossovers immediately south of the platforms connecting platforms 1 and 4 to the lines to the sidings. Given this there should be space for crossovers going the other directions (i.e. allowing northbound trains to run into p2 and southbound trains to run from p3, with reversing in the siding north of the station). It may require rebuilding of the bridges over the High Road, which would be expensive (and disruptive I suspect) but I see no technical reason why it could not be done.
We're getting off topic for this thread though, so perhaps a passing moderator might want to split this to one of the RIPAS boards?
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Post by Chris M on Jan 22, 2017 22:32:51 GMT
After posting my above message I got a query by PM asking whether I had "even bothered to look at the photograph". I did look at several photographs of East Finchley, including the one we are encouraged to search for ( this image) but the crossovers I suggest would be barely if at all visible in the background of that image. this image is significantly foreshortened but perhaps more useful regarding comparative heights. The southern toe of the crossovers I suggest might just be visible at the very bottom of the image, or might not. |
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Post by Chris M on Jan 22, 2017 22:37:05 GMT
This image from 1964 with south to the left, clearly shows that if nothing else reconstructing the bridges over the road into a single, broad deck would result in plenty of space for crossovers. It would be expensive, and probably disruptive, but there is no technical reason I can see why it would not be possible.
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Post by crusty54 on Jan 22, 2017 22:39:42 GMT
After posting my above message I got a query by PM asking whether I had "even bothered to look at the photograph". I did look at several photographs of East Finchley, including the one we are encouraged to search for ( this image) but the crossovers I suggest would be barely if at all visible in the background of that image. this image is significantly foreshortened but perhaps more useful regarding comparative heights. The southern toe of the crossovers I suggest might just be visible at the very bottom of the image, or might not. Not the correct image - there is a clearer image from the south end of the northbound platform. However this is totally off topic so I suggest the end of it. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 23, 2017 7:41:05 GMT
However this is totally off topic so I suggest the end of it. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 25, 2017 23:48:29 GMT
I have not seen any sign that proposed ITT has translated into firm orders. However as the paper acknowledged there was sufficient existing 1995 stock to provide some service to the Battersea extension, the lack of an order is no surprise especially given the current "no fare increases" policy. I somehow doubt extra trains will be ordered any time soon, and TFL are building up problems for themselves as they will surely miss the chance to purchase extra trains for both lines at affordable prices. I assume that by now a lot of the original Alsthom production line facilities (and experience) have been re-tasked. Meantime anyone traveling on rush hour Northern services will know they are already unpleasantly full and the line needs extra capacity now. Looking back to the last time a forward programme of project approvals was published then we should see two papers coming forward in the first half of this year. One called "Northern Line World Class Capacity" (due March) and the second "Additional trains for Northern and Jubilee lines" (due June). Unfortunately the level of transparency around project progress and spend has gone backwards since the new Mayoralty started. While I doubt LU have had to kill both projects off the back of the fares freeze impacts I suspect they have been partly descoped. Neither Jubilee or Northern is easy to upgrade as there are constraints on both lines which a tph boosting upgrade would have to resolve. The easiest way to scale back expenditure is to take a more conservative view on the level of tph you want to upgrade to. The key thing to watch for is whether the "new" trains contract has options in it for extra trains at a later date. That at least would allow a second stage if funding materialised. If there are no options then both lines will have capped capacity for a long time (as you say) because I can't imagine the jigs for the trains would be retained if there were no contract options possible. I can already hear the "oh Crossrail will relieve the Jubilee Line link to Docklands and Stratford" and "Crossrail 2 will relieve the worst overcrowding on the Northern Line" excuses being rolled out if there is a scaling back in ambition. Since the Northern Line is to be split then having platform doors on the Battersea branch should not be a problem - all that has to happen is that the new trains are only used on the route via Bank whilst Battersea is only served by the present-day trains. If the new trains are of the NTfL variety the people who are served by them will welcome the extra space compared with the present fleet. To resolve the platform doors issue on the Jubilee the simplest solution would be to send it some trains from the Northern Line. Then all three lines can get new trains at the same time many years from now. Simon |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 26, 2017 0:50:54 GMT
Since the Northern Line is to be split then having platform doors on the Battersea branch should not be a problem - all that has to happen is that the new trains are only used on the route via Bank whilst Battersea is only served by the present-day trains. If the new trains are of the NTfL variety the people who are served by them will welcome the extra space compared with the present fleet. To resolve the platform doors issue on the Jubilee the simplest solution would be to send it some trains from the Northern Line. Then all three lines can get new trains at the same time many years from now. Simon You can't split the Northern without resolving Camden Town. While a consulation is progressing there is no approved funding to fix Camden Town. There is no confirmed plan to split the Northern Line. LU have been considered how to do this for well over 10 years without reaching a conclusion. I saw papers on this over 5 years ago and no decision has been taken since then. Even if a decision is taken this year on coping with the Battersea extension and some further incremental upgrade I don't believe this will equal a full split into two separate managed routes. Depot facilities, siding space and fleet maintenance will be crucial issues and they are not easy to fix without spending a lot of money. LU will not be ordering the NTfL for the Northern Line. The tender is for "compatible" trains which must mean door spacing and positions that are the same as existing stock. There is no prospect of enough extra trains being ordered to fully operate a segregated "half" Northern Line. That would imply something near to 50-60 new trains - there's no money for that *at all* The replacment of Northern Line stock is so far into the future it's not even worth considering. I'm sorry but I think you are leaping ahead 20-30 years rather than considering the next 10-13 years. I would not be shocked, given the likely parlous state of TfL's finances in 2020, that the Northern Line trains will be over 50 years old before they are retired. We have to resolve the Picc Line, Bakerloo Line and Central / W&C Lines upgrades before even thinking about the Northern Line's future rolling stock. Sorting out LU's "knackered" lines will take a lot of effort for the next 25 years assuming funding is found before they collapse in a heap. |
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Post by North End on Jan 26, 2017 1:16:58 GMT
Since the Northern Line is to be split then having platform doors on the Battersea branch should not be a problem - all that has to happen is that the new trains are only used on the route via Bank whilst Battersea is only served by the present-day trains. If the new trains are of the NTfL variety the people who are served by them will welcome the extra space compared with the present fleet. To resolve the platform doors issue on the Jubilee the simplest solution would be to send it some trains from the Northern Line. Then all three lines can get new trains at the same time many years from now. Simon You can't split the Northern without resolving Camden Town. While a consulation is progressing there is no approved funding to fix Camden Town. There is no confirmed plan to split the Northern Line. LU have been considered how to do this for well over 10 years without reaching a conclusion. I saw papers on this over 5 years ago and no decision has been taken since then. Even if a decision is taken this year on coping with the Battersea extension and some further incremental upgrade I don't believe this will equal a full split into two separate managed routes. Depot facilities, siding space and fleet maintenance will be crucial issues and they are not easy to fix without spending a lot of money. LU will not be ordering the NTfL for the Northern Line. The tender is for "compatible" trains which must mean door spacing and positions that are the same as existing stock. There is no prospect of enough extra trains being ordered to fully operate a segregated "half" Northern Line. That would imply something near to 50-60 new trains - there's no money for that *at all* The replacment of Northern Line stock is so far into the future it's not even worth considering. I'm sorry but I think you are leaping ahead 20-30 years rather than considering the next 10-13 years. I would not be shocked, given the likely parlous state of TfL's finances in 2020, that the Northern Line trains will be over 50 years old before they are retired. We have to resolve the Picc Line, Bakerloo Line and Central / W&C Lines upgrades before even thinking about the Northern Line's future rolling stock. Sorting out LU's "knackered" lines will take a lot of effort for the next 25 years assuming funding is found before they collapse in a heap. I agree with all this. I think we will probably see some more segregation than we see today, like for example the morning peak northbound arrangement, but I really don't see a complete divorce between the two branches. And I really don't see the off-peak arrangement changing. As for the peaks, the Bank trains are the busier ones on both the Edgware and Barnet branches. The line layout means it would have to be Edgware-Battersea. How else does someone get from the Edgware branch to the city area? You simply can't have that amount of transfer at Camden Town and/or Euston, as the extra dwell time would completely kill the throughput, and cancel out any frequency gain. In any case, notwithstanding TBTC being a little slow to push trains through, the Camden layout is pretty efficient providing trains present themselves at the right moment. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 26, 2017 6:38:40 GMT
How else does someone get from the Edgware branch to the city area? From the end of next year, by changing to Crossrail at Tottenham Court Road |
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Post by rsdworker on Feb 10, 2017 2:46:05 GMT
so my question what the station layouts will look? for nine realms and battersea stations
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Post by melikepie on Feb 10, 2017 2:55:34 GMT
so my question what the station layouts will look? for nine realms and battersea stations Nine realms? Since when did we live in a fantasy world? |
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 10, 2017 3:22:28 GMT
so my question what the station layouts will look? for nine realms and battersea stations Both are wide island platforms |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 10, 2017 8:03:03 GMT
so my question what the station layouts will look? for nine realms and battersea stations Nine realms? Since when did we live in a fantasy world? That did make me chuckle in an ironic sort of way!  |
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Post by Dom K on Feb 10, 2017 8:57:02 GMT
Nine realms? Since when did we live in a fantasy world? That did make me chuckle in an ironic sort of way! To go off main topic but explain the above and just In case people needed to know what this is |
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 10, 2017 11:11:00 GMT
so my question what the station layouts will look? for nine realms and battersea stations Nine realms? Since when did we live in a fantasy world? Since we added the RIPAS board :S |
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Post by harbour on Apr 11, 2017 15:46:01 GMT
According to the ianvisits site, the tunnel boring machines (one of them at least) are now at work |
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Post by phoenixcronin on Apr 12, 2017 8:58:05 GMT
Any updates on the extra trains that need to be ordered?
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Post by trt on Apr 12, 2017 15:22:00 GMT
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 12, 2017 15:31:57 GMT
Any updates on the extra trains that need to be ordered? They are not needed for the initial services only if Camden Town split happens. |
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Post by up1989 on Apr 13, 2017 12:19:08 GMT
I would have thought they are getting extra trains as it was mentioned on the Night tube introduction, (the week before the trial nights) That there is a plan for extra trains on the Jubilee and the Northern. Plus camden needs a lot of work before it can be split up.
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Post by snoggle on Jul 26, 2017 14:52:02 GMT
In the planned track closures list there are a number of short 45 minute closures (0045-0130) between Charing Cross and Stockwell. These seem to interrupt the start of the Night Tube on this section on specific dates. Are these related to NLE works in and around Kennington? Just looks really odd to see a 45 minute pause to services. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 26, 2017 15:54:18 GMT
In the planned track closures list there are a number of short 45 minute closures (0045-0130) between Charing Cross and Stockwell. These seem to interrupt the start of the Night Tube on this section on specific dates. Are these related to NLE works in and around Kennington? Just looks really odd to see a 45 minute pause to services. Yes, does appear to be Kennington loop work: |
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Post by melikepie on Oct 15, 2017 7:43:23 GMT
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 15, 2017 9:33:09 GMT
With tunnelling in progress it would be a "courageous" decision to abandon the project at this late stage.
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Post by trt on Oct 15, 2017 10:03:44 GMT
With tunnelling in progress it would be a "courageous" decision to abandon the project at this late stage. Tunneling began in April and was expected to take 6 months to complete. So it should be almost finished now, yes? |
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 15, 2017 11:31:37 GMT
With tunnelling in progress it would be a "courageous" decision to abandon the project at this late stage. Tunneling began in April and was expected to take 6 months to complete. So it should be almost finished now, yes? , They are running behind schedule as the TBMs were passing over or under existing assets (sewers and power cables) or through historical ground obstructions such as piles and wells.The rate of progress with the Southbound tunnel has picked up since the TBM passed Nine Elms at the end of July and is expected to broadly recover to schedule by the end of the drive. The main tunnel drives are expected to be in place for the breakout into the Kennington loop over the Christmas/New Year possessions on 23rd Dec and 1st Jan. |
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Post by theblackferret on Oct 15, 2017 11:41:14 GMT
With tunnelling in progress it would be a "courageous" decision to abandon the project at this late stage. There's a late & very strong contender for Understatement of the Year. |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 15, 2017 12:04:10 GMT
The tunnels will be finished. It would cost pretty much the same to stop them as to continue so even a bean counter wouldn't halt that now.
Station fit out though is a different story, and could much more easily be "deferred", even more so if any assets already ordered could be used elsewhere on the network (e.g. ticket machines or gates ordered for the new stations could replace life expired kit elsewhere).
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