DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 17, 2021 7:41:49 GMT
extract from new Tube Map: Well, looking at the new map, there will be no way for Morden trains to run through to Charing Cross branch, and even the Kennington interchange will be a long walk between branches! And I thought Kennington station was to be unchanged except for a few new passages. ;-) What the map does not show is the Kennington Loop, trains from Morden can still go via the Charing Cross Branch, Interchange between the branches at Kennington is not a long walk, only extra cross passages were built to help interchange between branches, the platforms have not been moved !
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Post by xplaistow on Sept 17, 2021 8:20:30 GMT
I thought that a major part of the rationale for those through services is that by extending some Charing X trains that would otherwise start/finish at Kennington to/from Morden allows for more capacity on that overcrowded section without feeding extra trains into the mess that is Camden Town junction.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 17, 2021 9:04:59 GMT
Given the proximity of the two depots, I imagine it's also a lot easier for Morden to provide first northbound and last southbound trains than it is to have to run them from Golders and round the loop.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 17, 2021 9:43:03 GMT
Given the proximity of the two depots, I imagine it's also a lot easier for Morden to provide first northbound and last southbound trains than it is to have to run them from Golders and round the loop. Indeed, the first 4 trains via Charing X start at Morden, the fifth from Battersea Power Station
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Sept 17, 2021 12:39:18 GMT
Maps (allegedly) being "confusing" for tourists is an assumption.
Actually it's just a pretty lame excuse for not running the best possible service pattern.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 17, 2021 13:00:13 GMT
Maps (allegedly) being "confusing" for tourists is an assumption. Actually it's just a pretty lame excuse for not running the best possible service pattern. I don't think anyone is using confusing maps as an excuse for the service pattern? I think they are arguing the maps are confusing because they don't reflect the service pattern. The service pattern is probably about the best that can be run at the moment. A full split of the Northern line would arguably give a better service but that can't happen until at least after Camden is rebuilt, not because of any issue with maps but because of the physical constraints of the station.
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Post by A60stock on Sept 17, 2021 13:35:54 GMT
I know that the initial service will be 5tph to mill hill east from the extension, but what will be the permanent timetable say by the start of next year?
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Post by Alight on Sept 17, 2021 13:44:28 GMT
Maps (allegedly) being "confusing" for tourists is an assumption. Actually it's just a pretty lame excuse for not running the best possible service pattern. I don't think the confusion is limited to tourists - it's most passengers. We have a Tube map that shows a complete split (accentuated by the unusually wide interchange symbol at Kennington!) and then we have line diagrams showing a pecked section of line to denote through services. In reality, there won't be many through services - not enough to really justify making the diagrams appear overly fussy. Maybe I'm one for efficiency and simplicity, but I appreciate others may prefer a more complex diagram.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 17, 2021 14:00:17 GMT
I know that the initial service will be 5tph to mill hill east from the extension, but what will be the permanent timetable say by the start of next year? Think you have been misled, only 1tph off-peak Battersea-Mill Hill East link
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Post by Alight on Sept 17, 2021 14:10:32 GMT
I think the original rumours were suggesting 5tph to MHE, but as others are saying, the timetable confirms this won't be the case. In fact, what's interesting is there appears to be a lack of Edgware branch in the distribution!
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Post by Chris L on Sept 17, 2021 15:13:14 GMT
I think the original rumours were suggesting 5tph to MHE, but as others are saying, the timetable confirms this won't be the case. In fact, what's interesting is there appears to be a lack of Edgware branch in the distribution! Haven't off peak services been Edgware (via Charing Cross) & High Barnet (via Bank) for some years?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 17, 2021 16:19:04 GMT
Maps (allegedly) being "confusing" for tourists is an assumption. Actually it's just a pretty lame excuse for not running the best possible service pattern. I don't think anyone is using confusing maps as an excuse for the service pattern? I think they are arguing the maps are confusing because they don't reflect the service pattern. This is similar to when the Central line started running through trains from the main line to the Hainault - Woodford section, but Hainault to Woodford was still shown as a shuttle. It reflects the balance, that in many (but not all) cases passengers from the Charing Cross branch wishing to travel beyond Kennington will need to change at Kennington. What should have been more carefully considered is the discrepancy between the map, the car diagrams, and (potentially) diagrams on platforms - there's an inconsistency which will add to the confusion and could have been so easily avoided.
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Post by Alight on Sept 17, 2021 16:43:08 GMT
Haven't off peak services been Edgware (via Charing Cross) & High Barnet (via Bank) for some years? Indeed, but I could have sworn someone posted on here recently that the distribution of the 5tph BPS originators specifically were all going towards High Barnet (and MHE), with presumably Edgware via CXs services still provided for by some of the Kennington originators. That being said, I cannot find this post so maybe I imagined it or it was deleted!
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vincenture
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Post by vincenture on Sept 17, 2021 17:38:58 GMT
One of the benefits is that Charing Cross branch trains might become less packed cuz of the diagram, but I doubt that's healthy on the Bank branch...
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Post by davidnq2 on Sept 17, 2021 17:43:09 GMT
Haven't off peak services been Edgware (via Charing Cross) & High Barnet (via Bank) for some years? Indeed, but I could have sworn someone posted on here recently that the distribution of the 5tph BPS originators specifically were all going towards High Barnet (and MHE), with presumably Edgware via CXs services still provided for by some of the Kennington originators. That being said, I cannot find this post so maybe I imagined it or it was deleted! No - at most times (peak and off-peak), services run alternately to/from Edgware and High Barnet, from and to both Charing Cross and Bank branches. The only exception is northbound trains in the morning peak which are segregated at Camden Town - in the current timetable these are Bank to Edgware (a few to Golders Green) and Charing Cross to High Barnet (or Mill Hill East). In the past (I think it was WTT54, i.e. pre-CBTC) this split was the other way round. I have not yet seen WTT58 (it does not seem to be online yet even though it starts on Sunday) so am waiting to see what the new arrangement will be.
So if half the Charing Cross service is to run to Battersea PS, this will generally mean alternate trains which will all be heading for the same branch north of Camden Town. To serve Battersea from both northern branches would mean running two adjacent trains to Battersea (one from each branch), then the next two terminating at Kennington loop (or through to Morden).
I seem to remember that trains to High Barnet followed this pattern many years ago (when they were less frequent than they are now) - the sequence was CX to High Barnet, Bank to High Barnet, CX to Mill Hill East, Bank to Finchley Central or Archway - but that was a long time ago! Alternatively, you could serve both branches alternately by only having one train in three go to a destination (which I think was at one time the pattern for services to Mill Hill East).
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Post by Alight on Sept 17, 2021 18:34:06 GMT
That makes sense - thanks for explaining. I also recall seeing the odd East Finchley terminator during the AM peak.
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 17, 2021 23:37:10 GMT
So because of this extension Mill Hill East will be getting through trains again?
I hope to get to Battersea on Monday, have another commitment in the morning but the afternoon should be OK. Its not the most needed extension here in London but it does seem to serve areas that are not well served by mainline services.
I wonder if it will ever be extended? Clapham Junction has been mooted but I read somewhere that a lobby group want it extending to Imperial Wharf, to aid regeneration.
I suppose that if someone in the Imperial Wharf area has £1bn in loose change under the sofa then they might just strike lucky!
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Sept 18, 2021 9:54:21 GMT
Extension to Clapham Junction has been mooted many times,for obvious geographical reasons. The reason it hasn't advanced is money...both to pay for the extension itself,but also the work necessary at Clapham Jct and to ameliorate the consequent crowding on the Northern Line..it is thought such an extension would be a victim of its own success.
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Post by ijmad on Sept 18, 2021 12:42:51 GMT
If Crossrail 2 is ever built it would take enough pressure off Clapham Junction that a Northern Line extension there wouldn't be overwhelmed, but who knows now when that might happen.
Speculation, does anyone think there'll be an early soft opening tomorrow afternoon, as we've seen with many other railway projects? Or is Monday the definite commencement of the service?
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Post by superteacher on Sept 18, 2021 13:37:07 GMT
Can we avoid discussion on any future extensions in this thread please. If you want to go down that route (pun intended 😂), head over to the RIPAS board.
Thanks all.
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Post by brigham on Sept 18, 2021 14:39:58 GMT
Well, looking at the new map, there will be no way for Morden trains to run through to Charing Cross branch, and even the Kennington interchange will be a long walk between branches! And I thought Kennington station was to be unchanged except for a few new passages. ;-) Either the rules have been changed to suit this one station (Kennington), or the new map is wrong.
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Post by ijmad on Sept 18, 2021 15:08:26 GMT
Well, looking at the new map, there will be no way for Morden trains to run through to Charing Cross branch, and even the Kennington interchange will be a long walk between branches! And I thought Kennington station was to be unchanged except for a few new passages. ;-) Either the rules have been changed to suit this one station (Kennington), or the new map is wrong. What rule out of interest? (genuine). It seems like the width of connector blobs has often been vastly out of proportion to the length of the walk, I mean look at Farringdon or Canning Town on the current map, they are similarly ridiculous given how easy the interchanges are. Another question I had, what's going to happen with the Battersea branch service pattern during the Bank Branch closure next year? I'd imagine that most Charing X trains would need to go to Morden or things will get pretty overcrowded. Do they expect to be able to continue running 5tph to Battersea throughout?
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Post by superteacher on Sept 18, 2021 16:41:07 GMT
Kennington to Morden will have to cope with 25-26tph.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 18, 2021 17:48:53 GMT
Either the rules have been changed to suit this one station (Kennington), or the new map is wrong. What rule out of interest? (genuine). It seems like the width of connector blobs has often been vastly out of proportion to the length of the walk, I mean look at Farringdon or Canning Town on the current map, they are similarly ridiculous given how easy the interchanges are. Have interchange symbols ever been proportional to the length of walk? That's a new one on me. If it is the case (which I doubt) the interchange between Bakerloo and Northern lines at Charing Cross should be easy!
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Post by Chris L on Sept 18, 2021 20:52:50 GMT
What rule out of interest? (genuine). It seems like the width of connector blobs has often been vastly out of proportion to the length of the walk, I mean look at Farringdon or Canning Town on the current map, they are similarly ridiculous given how easy the interchanges are. Have interchange symbols ever been proportional to the length of walk? That's a new one on me. If it is the case (which I doubt) the interchange between Bakerloo and Northern lines at Charing Cross should be easy! This is the design manual for line diagrams content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-line-diagram-standard.pdfIn general the Tube map, car line diagrams and the Tube map. The standards seem to have been thrown away with a desire to create confusing maps and line diagrams with every part of the page covered in ink.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 18, 2021 22:02:11 GMT
Have interchange symbols ever been proportional to the length of walk? That's a new one on me. If it is the case (which I doubt) the interchange between Bakerloo and Northern lines at Charing Cross should be easy! This is the design manual for line diagrams content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-line-diagram-standard.pdfIn general the Tube map, car line diagrams and the Tube map. The standards seem to have been thrown away with a desire to create confusing maps and line diagrams with every part of the page covered in ink. This document is dated January 2009 so is over 12 years since it was revised, lots of top management in LUL / TfL have been and gone over the years since this was published !
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 18, 2021 22:53:25 GMT
Indeed, and I wonder how well it was proof-read in the first place - section 7 contains this:
It's clear they meant denoted, but even so, it's a bit embarrassing.
Clearly it's gone the way of the 2000s Customer Service Delivery Standards (where over-personalisation of announcements and use of whiteboards for anything other than service information was forbidden), meanwhile there's a whole suite of documents on house style and 'how to talk TfL' now.
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Post by Chris L on Sept 19, 2021 2:38:38 GMT
This is the design manual for line diagrams content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-line-diagram-standard.pdfIn general the Tube map, car line diagrams and the Tube map. The standards seem to have been thrown away with a desire to create confusing maps and line diagrams with every part of the page covered in ink. This document is dated January 2009 so is over 12 years since it was revised, lots of top management in LUL / TfL have been and gone over the years since this was published ! It is stil the official document on the TfL website for suppliers.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 19, 2021 8:42:46 GMT
Are trains running empty to Battersea today under the new timetable?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 19, 2021 9:55:31 GMT
Are trains running empty to Battersea today under the new timetable? yes. first southbound train from Charing Cross branch T064 51545+51544 successfully negotiated the branch at 07.28 from Kennington pfm.2 it appears that shuttle train T201 didn't operate this morning, so the first northbound train was T064 again
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