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Post by jardine01 on Mar 15, 2011 20:10:33 GMT
Does anybody know if the Jubilee line will get a prefomance upgrade on the 1996 stock? Because at the moment the acceration of the trains are not like the ATO on the Central. I read somewhere that the trains are limited to 70% power are they still restricted or running in Full prefomance mode yet? Thanks  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2011 20:23:31 GMT
For some reason I do believe you've already asked this question!
Under TBTC the performance of the 1996ts is uncapped. However, the timetable is designed for manual operation, so the Schedule Regulation Server(s) at Neasden instruct the system to give the trains lower target speeds to drive to. This means the performance is relatively limited, but when things go wrong, it gets back to timetable very quickly, as the trains give it full beef. It is rather impressive.
On December 11th the JL was running TBTC Stratford - Dollis Hill. I remember a bunch of us looking out the window as we went past on the way to Chesham to find the blue starter. I went on it later on in the day and must note the performance was mighty impressive!
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Post by t697 on Mar 15, 2011 21:16:20 GMT
The initial acceleration (low speeds) of 96TS is a little lower than 92TS basically because the 96TS only has 4 motored cars out of 7, whilst 92TS has all cars and all axles motored. So working with the same adhesion requirement at the lower speeds, the 92TS is quicker off the mark. I recall though that the ultimate whole train current limit for 92TS is lower so the 96TS will have more acceleration at higher speeds. Certainly the 96TS on type testing as a six car using all the power (not the 83TS 'legacy' curve) was very impressive up the climb from West Hampstead to Kilburn.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2011 23:16:55 GMT
I personally think the 1996 is the fastest on the Network with 1992 closely following and 2009 stock a bit slower. Definitely quicker than a London Overground 378.
Maybe someone can time the units 0-50 kph and 0-80 kph acceleration times?
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Post by plasmid on Mar 16, 2011 0:46:23 GMT
92ts has motored axle's on all 8 cars. 96ts has motored axle's on 4 cars out of 7 (originally 4 out of 6 but an extra carriage was added). 09ts has motored axle's on 6 cars out of 8 as TFL initially wanted to save a few million pounds. Bombardier originally suggested that all axle's should be motored. Unfortunately I don't think anyone is in a position to judge any of the trains for the following reasons... 92ts is undergoing a multi-million pound replacement programme of Siemens Bogies, Electric Shoes and motors. 80% of cars have been modified so far but most of the trains are currently pick n mix. Until you've been on a 92ts where all the Bogies etc has been replaced you won't have noticed the true performance. I got off the front of a train today and as it left the platform I could see all cars have had new Bogies and Shoes and accelerated quicker than another 92ts on the opposite platform which had the old style Kawasaki Bogies and Shoes. 96ts as already mentioned are being automatically operated by a Server running on the old timetable, therefore trains will accelerate slower and have a lower top speed so that trains adhere to that timetable. When there is a delay then the trains will automatically run faster to make up for lost time. I have been on a few 96ts over the same stretch of line and on one particular day I noticed it was much quicker compared to the other days. Until the entire line goes ATO and a new timetable has been introduced to maximise the trains performance, we won't see much. 09ts according to Forum user 'Racka'... The 09's are not currently turned down to match the 67 stock, which is why they easily catch 67 stock. The trains are designed to work at 4500A but are currently capped at 3500A (lineside power supply would need an upgrade to support 4500A I believe). Also, regen is capped at 675V due to interrunning, capability is 790V, which should be enabled once the 67's are gone. Either of these could result in improved acceleration. Braking rates will not be altered from what they currently are. Regarding 92TS, the performance specs are quite similar (1.15m/s/s braking profiles, 1.4m/s/s max service braking). The control on '09's (jerk limitation, motor-brake hysteresis control etc.) stops it from feeling quite as violent as the 92 TS. |
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Post by d7666 on Mar 21, 2011 19:44:36 GMT
Current caps on all stock is something I'd like to know.
All stocks of all types are capped somehow although its not all for the same reason and different terminology may be used.
In traditional DC motor units (i.e. A C D 67 72 73) there is in the traction circuit a Current Limit Relay. CLRs must exist, this is what controls notch up through each resistor. I know their settings on BR SR third rail main line units of old, but I have never seen values for them for any LU stock.
Not sure how the same limit is done on 92 stock, which are DC motor i.e. I do not know of it is done by current limit relay or if there is something in the chopper pack that has the same effect. anybody able to answer that ?
AC motor 96 95 9 S stock will all have traction pack current limits.
When I was at NSCC I did try and get the values for 96 stock for the J5 and J6 TBTC upgrade stages (thats capped and unscrewed stages in simple terms) but no-one I was in contact with seemed to know.
The 9 stock data upthread is the first I have seen of this data for LU - although again I have it all (well more or less) for NR southern zone third rail VVVF units.
Knowing current limits - either by limit relay or by package capping - gives far more useful data on performance or potential performance than knowing motor ratings. However, motor detail is of use ... this is the LU stock data as I have it, for types where the data is lined up to the same reference point. I know people may be able to - and probably will - quote other values, but this data in this table below may be taken as being directly comparable.
As word document tables don't usually survive posting in web forums, and, right now, this web forum table formatting is not playing ball with me, three dots ... represents a column if anyone want to convert it all back to a table. Some of tis will probably line wrap so it might look a mess at first glance.
Motor type ... Manufacturer ... Ratings 1 hour/Continuous kW ... Volts ... Amps ... Stock
LT112 ... GEC (Witton) ... 77/60 ... 575 ... 150/116 ... 1959 / 62 tube stock
LT114 ... GEC (Witton) ... 64/48 ... 288 ... 260/187 ... A60/62 stock
LT115 LT115A LT115B ... Crompton P Brush ... 79/53 ... 300 ... 300/200 ... 1967 / 72 tube stock
LT117 LT117A ... Brush ... 87/68 ... 288 ... 350/270 ... C69/77 stock
LT118C LT118D ... Brush ... 66/49 ... 288 ... 260/194 ... 1973 tube stock D78 stock
LT122 ... Brush ... 53/43 ... 288 ... 220/178 ... 1983 tube stock
LT130 ... Brush ... 54/46 ... 288 ... 210/179 ... 1992 tube stock
G355AZ ... GEC Alsthom ... NA/85 ... 395 ... NA /175 ... 1995 tube stock
LT200 ... GEC Alsthom ... NA/90 ... 445 ... NA/154 ... 1996 tube stock
(2009 motor) ... Bombardier Mitrac ... NA/75 ... 491 ... NA/135 ... 2009 tube stock
(S motor) ... Bombardier Mitrac ... NA/65 ... 491 ... NA/112 ... S stock
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Nick
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Post by superteacher on Mar 21, 2011 20:08:14 GMT
The 2009 stock do feel quicker than the 92 stock, although I daresay there's nothing in it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 20:12:11 GMT
75kW continuous vs. 46kW is quite a large difference, not to mention IGBT control and 3 phase traction vs. DC.
Yes there are less motored axles but I'd imagine the total power is probably greater!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 13:53:21 GMT
Older DC series wound motors tend to produce a higher output while accelerating - hence the one hour figure. Modern 3 phase AC traction tends to give a more steady power output over a larger speed range.
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 22, 2011 16:25:33 GMT
I suppose the 1992 stock has motors throught the train in every carriage.
The 1996 stock has 4 motors even though everybody says the power is upped in TBTC am not intirely sure i will wait untill all the line is ATO and maybe they will up the power thurther because of the new timetable?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 16:31:38 GMT
I suppose the 1992 stock has motors throught the train in every carriage. The 1996 stock has 4 motors even though everybody says the power is upped in TBTC am not intirely sure i will wait untill all the line is ATO and maybe they will up the power thurther because of the new timetable? They ARE uncapped under TBTC. It won't be 'upped further' as it cannot be. It is simply the trains being driven more slowly by the SelTrac ATO to match the old timetable. |
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Post by d7666 on Mar 22, 2011 21:10:55 GMT
When were they uncapped ?
They were capped when I was at NSCC which was until 2 years ago. I had that from both signals and fleet people.
I am also of the understanding an uncapped 96 stock train is beyond the capability of conventional signalling .
It was always my understanding the TBTC signalling stages - using the nomenclature I know of - J2-J5 were old timetable + capped stock, and J6 new timetable + uncapped stock.
We are only at J4 at the moment (or J234 as some like to say) J5 being Dollis Hill to Stanmore , so they should still be capped.
When did this plan change to uncap before the WHOLE line is TBTC , and what has changed in the remaining tripcock mode line that is now allowing uncapped stock that previously was not allowed ?
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Nick
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 21:11:53 GMT
Uncapped when running under TBTC signalling.
You can hell notice the difference when things run late.
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 23, 2011 15:18:09 GMT
Also when the train reaches Dollis hill Northbound the train comes out of TBTC then goes to full speed manual mode under conventional line side signals? On the Dollis Hill to Stanmore section they are restricted to 70% power am i correct?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 22:18:28 GMT
Think they are full power now all the time? Only difference from what I remember reading is top end speed / performance is better not lower speeds which has always been pretty quick. I am sure a Jubilee driver can tell us if they are faster in manual regardless of TBTC or Tripcock modes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 22:30:27 GMT
They do feel like they have a bit more beef lower down. Compare:
(note the plonkers with the doors); seems slower than normal but the train was crowded to hell. Maybe the t/op didn't give the handle a whack down.
to
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 25, 2011 17:59:39 GMT
Although people think they are running on full power now i am not sure. On one of the websites i think its called the 'London banter' there is a blog about Jubilee line ATO somebody mentioned the same thing its hard to tell the train is being driven automatically. Somebody said that they are still running on restricted prefomance and full power will only be fully operational when the new timetable comes in! I have noticed that the trains don't pull away as rapidly as quick as they did in manual only difference i have noticed they seem to have more power at higher speeds. If the trains are really running on full power now i should notice it they dont pull away as rapidly as a 1992 stock or a 2009 stock. If anybody knows about the prefomance upgrade please let me know hopefully a driver or somebody who works on the Jubilee line may find a answer?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2011 18:07:01 GMT
Jardine.
I've explained how it is.
The simple reason they run to lower acceleration and speeds is because of the timetable. Do you not listen when people say that they are limited because of the schedule regulation server?
The ATO on the Jub as used currently is very easy to pick out from PM, as ATO rocks the train. When a decent timetable comes in, they'll go all the way.
Get on the Jub when there's delays. Then tell me they are restricted in power.
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 25, 2011 19:26:33 GMT
ok, i have been on many Jubilee line trains which have been delayed when i was on the Jub in December the train was fast yes that was on the 26th December 2010 was ATO in use then?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2011 19:35:45 GMT
Don't think TBTC was being used on that day. If it was, it would have almost certainly been PM.
TBTC has been the main signalling east of Dollis Hill since mid January.
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 25, 2011 19:50:49 GMT
I know some trains were in ATO. some trains were in ATO on the 31st December 2010. I was fortante enough to get on one of the first ATO trains back in December. Does anybody have a idea when Dollis hill to Stanmore will go ATO? hopefully soon!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2011 19:53:22 GMT
End of Spring I've heard quoted.
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Post by jardine01 on Mar 27, 2011 9:38:54 GMT
Was ATO in use on the 29th December 2010?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 9:41:43 GMT
Not fully, if TBTC was in operation.
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 25, 2011 20:26:18 GMT
At london bridge yesterday i was inpressed with the enhanced preformance the train was very quick of the mark and we hit about 50mph in no time. DO all the trains now have enhanced preformance?
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Post by br7mt on Sept 25, 2011 21:47:30 GMT
Not far off now completing the whole fleet.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by jardine01 on Sept 25, 2011 21:52:16 GMT
So since TBTC was enabled since January where they running on 100% power then?
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Post by br7mt on Sept 26, 2011 18:12:36 GMT
When TBTC entered passenger service they had Version 5 software, which allowed 6-car 96TS performance levels with a 7-car train, but only in TBTC signalled areas.
We introduced Version 6 in July, which provided full regenerative braking.
Version 7 is now being rolled out, which enhances acceleration rate when the train is lightly laden.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2011 21:33:45 GMT
I saw a slight increase in tractive effort on another type of train when laden. Is this called load weighing control?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Sept 27, 2011 1:50:46 GMT
Version 7 is now being rolled out, which enhances acceleration rate when the train is lightly laden. Per train, per car or per VOBC? |
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