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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2011 9:06:30 GMT
I seem to remember that the Jubilee line was supposed to have Westinghouse ATO when it opened. Was this going to be the same system as used on the Central line and why wasn't it installed?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2011 13:31:05 GMT
If Westinghouse had implemented it, I wonder if the PEDs would be more cooperative with the train. I guess we'll never find out.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 14, 2011 21:54:40 GMT
I seem to remember that the Jubilee line was supposed to have Westinghouse ATO when it opened. Was this going to be the same system as used on the Central line and why wasn't it installed? Was not the all same, or, at least, from drawings I have seen of the full scheme when I was on the line on signals control system technical support, it was not. Central Line (where I am now) has Westinghouse ATS and ATP and ATO i.e. it is all Westinghouse. Jubilee line would have been Westinghouse trackside and train borne (ATP+ATO) but the signals control system (ATS) was from Alcatel. Also (and discussed in other threads) the Central Line is *generally* relay interlocking at the western end and Westrace interlocking at the eastern end. The Jubilee would, so I understand, have had Westrace interlockings on the JLE (exactly as installed) but retained the V-frame interlockings on the ''upgrade'' as Alcatel/Thales referred to it. The Alcatel JLESCS was commissioned between STA STR and WES; I assume its pending decommissioning right now. Somewhere I have seen a diagram that shows the scope of all the Alcatel LNPs (Local Non-vital Processor) which is their name for LSC (Local Site computer) all the way from STR to STA; which I'd taken some notes form that one now, as its sure to be of historic interest, and I can't even recall where the LNPs were to have been - location of LNP/LSC are not necessarily in the obvious rail locations. At least thats how I have understood it, based on JLESCS engineering documentation that I used on JLE even though no ATO was in use. I don't know the technical reasons why the original ATO failed. The political reasons were getting JLE open and reliable for year 2000 etc etc and politicians don't wait for engineers. Some of what I write here may be flawed, I pieced together several jigsaw pieces, but they might not be all from the same puzzle. Hopefully someone may be able to fill in the gaps ? -- Nick
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Post by d7666 on Jan 14, 2011 22:02:11 GMT
Also, the original concept for both lines was DC traction control would be in the line control room; not just the back-up desks, but the actual control. I understand they did start this at Wood Lane but later removed it; it never started at Neasden AFAIK. Back-up desks are of course at both. The Central Line traction SCADA is from ABB (it might even have been called BBC then I'm not sure) but the Jubilee system was from Transmitton (since taken over by Siemens).
-- Nick
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2011 3:36:45 GMT
What sort of ATP/ATO system was the JLE originally supposed to have had? Something based on coded track circuits like the Central Line, or something fancier and TBTC-like? There's definitely been a history of TBTC schemes quietly dying after being built, without ever being fully commissioned and made to work right.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 15, 2011 12:19:50 GMT
The original Jubilee resignalling was supposed to be a Westinghouse designed "moving block" system. There was also to be a fixed block back-up system. At the time the contract was agreed in November 1993, the development of the new system had a long way to go and Westinghouse were winging it to a large extent. By mid-1996 all the parties involved were having serious doubts about progress on the moving block system but it took until February 1998 for Westinghouse to admit they couldn't do it. The extension opened with fixed block signalling in December 1999.
As I've said many times before, you just can't look at one apparently all-singing, all-dancing train control system and expect it to solve all your operating problems and offer a cure for cancer on the side! You have to understand the whole railway system, even down to such things as telling passengers which train is going to leave first and what happens when the driver changes ends.
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Post by singaporesam on Jan 15, 2011 13:41:34 GMT
What sort of ATP/ATO system was the JLE originally supposed to have had? Something based on coded track circuits like the Central Line, or something fancier and TBTC-like? There's definitely been a history of TBTC schemes quietly dying after being built, without ever being fully commissioned and made to work right. Only ones from certain manufacturers........
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Post by chorleywood on Jan 18, 2011 22:22:07 GMT
The VLU "distance-to-go" ATP/ATO system is a direct descendent of the WRSL "moving block" system for the JLE which was never commissioned. The key difference was that on the JLE system the train determined its own position, transmitted that to the trackside, the trackside "moving block processor" calculated the limit of movement authority and transmitted that back to the train. The VLU system simplified this by using conventional track-circuit based train detection to work out train locations, which the "fixed block processor" would then transmit to the train (along with route locking info etc) so the train could determine how far ahead the track was clear. This gave a system which retained the majority of the benefits despite a significant reduction in complexity.
The VLU and JLE systems were originally hardware-compatible (the fixed block processor and moving block processor were the same hardware with different software installed, and the leaky-feeder radio sytems were identical) to the point that the first prototype demonstration of distance-to-go was on the non-commissioned JLE system between Stanmore and Canons Park. I suspect that the VLU DTG hardware has been modified since the original demonstration, so any back-compatibility would now have been lost!
However - we've failed to answer the original question! The original Jubilee Line ATO plan (in the early 1970's) was to fit a development of the system which had just been fitted to the Victoria Line! The changes were an increase in track circuit signal level (to allow reliable operation in open sections) and the introduction of a 660 code (to give a wider range of operating speed and avoid "code lock-in" effects.) Equipment rooms were built and wired at Canons Park, Queensbury and Kingsbury ready to test the kit, but the plan was abandoned. The room at Queensbury came back into LU's consciousness in the late '90s when it had to be demolished as its foundations had started to fall down the embankment!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2011 6:20:50 GMT
Aha, so it was indeed an RF-based communication system with leaky feeders. I was curious because there have been various attempts at installing such a system here in the US, some of which have been abandoned and others made to work only after a lot of effort and significant modifications to the original scheme. Does the new Victoria Line system also use RF for wayside-to-train communication of signalling information?
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 19, 2011 7:32:52 GMT
I was present at the demo of the Westinghouse system at Stanmore. It actually worked but only after some fiddling about with the kit. Still, it was do-able, given enough time.
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Post by chorleywood on Jan 19, 2011 8:10:59 GMT
Yes, VLU uses a leaky feeder RF system for trackside to train communication.
Tubeprune - as I recall the DTG first test run ended in an unexpected brake application halfway between Stanmore and Canons Park, as someone had forgotten to power up the Fixed Block Processor at Canons Park! The remainder of those runs showed definite promise, and reasonably good stopping accuracy at the end of each run, given the prototype nature of the software.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 20, 2011 10:06:19 GMT
Yes, VLU uses a leaky feeder RF system for trackside to train communication. Tubeprune - as I recall the DTG first test run ended in an unexpected brake application halfway between Stanmore and Canons Park, as someone had forgotten to power up the Fixed Block Processor at Canons Park! The remainder of those runs showed definite promise, and reasonably good stopping accuracy at the end of each run, given the prototype nature of the software. Yes, now you mention it, I remember the sudden stop. I was in the front car with sundry other suits and hangers on.
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