SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
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Post by SE13 on Aug 10, 2011 16:18:55 GMT
33 tph would work out at one every 1 minute 48 seconds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 21:52:57 GMT
I happened to watch a 1950s LT video about being a Power Signal Lineman which mentioned the signal systems controlling up to 40 trains per hour. Maybe the old systems aren't so bad after all
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 8:49:59 GMT
I happened to watch a 1950s LT video about being a Power Signal Lineman which mentioned the signal systems controlling up to 40 trains per hour. Maybe the old systems aren't so bad after all Ah, but does that refer to a 40tph service pattern, or 20tph in each direction? |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 11, 2011 9:47:45 GMT
40tph was possible before "Moorgate" protection came in. Prior to this, trains could run into terminal -platforms much quicker. After the protection, trains were forced t crawl into the platform, which seriously reduced the overall capacity of whatever line - the only unaffected locations would be where long overruns existed beyond the terminals like on the Victoria.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 12:47:12 GMT
Until the early 1960s 40 tph used to run on the District Line in each direction west of Mansion House at the height of the peak. 8 tph to/from each of Circle, Wimbledon, Richmond, Ealing and Hounslow West. At that time there was no terminal platform at Tower Hill, though there were two at Mansion House.
A train every 1½ minutes – woo hoo! From South Kensington some of these used to skip pairs of stations, euphemistically styled "Non-Stop" on the indicators. Starting with the train following a Circle, diverging to a separate track before Sth Ken (not after, as now). Obviously this required meticulous operation.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 11, 2011 16:17:57 GMT
Still I still think today the District/Circle lines are pritty frequent I have never waited over 5 minutes for a train before. Maybe when the new signaling system comes in we may see 40 TPH?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 17:29:40 GMT
The impression I have is that in LPTB days 40 tph was seen as the standard peak frequency, at least aspirationally, in the central area. And that at least to some extent branches & intermediate terminating points were to facilitate this.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 11, 2011 19:43:26 GMT
Still I still think today the District/Circle lines are pritty frequent I have never waited over 5 minutes for a train before. Maybe when the new signaling system comes in we may see 40 TPH? You'll never see 40tph with current passenger habits like obstructing doors. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 22:28:16 GMT
I happened to watch a 1950s LT video about being a Power Signal Lineman which mentioned the signal systems controlling up to 40 trains per hour. Maybe the old systems aren't so bad after all Ah, but does that refer to a 40tph service pattern, or 20tph in each direction? It didn't say, but nor does, as far as I can remember, the current publicity say whether 33tph means 16.5 trains in each direction |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 22:30:08 GMT
Still I still think today the District/Circle lines are pritty frequent I have never waited over 5 minutes for a train before. Maybe when the new signaling system comes in we may see 40 TPH? You'll never see 40tph with current passenger habits like obstructing doors. Which is an annoying habit that is as old as since the underground had pneumatically controlled doors. |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 13, 2011 11:13:14 GMT
I had a disspointing run between Queensbury and Stanmore yesterday the train was going very slowly and the Preformance was terrible braking far to early and very slow off the mark has anyone else experienced this or was it just my train?
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 13, 2011 11:15:10 GMT
The train I was on was 96054
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Post by plasmid on Aug 13, 2011 13:52:59 GMT
It's spelt "Performance" jardine01.
The train was probably early hence the slow running. Hardly disappointing...
Try to remember that on a moving block system the trains run according to a timetable.
With a fixed block system like the Central/Victoria then the trains will run at maximum line speed until they reach the next station.
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Aug 13, 2011 14:45:31 GMT
It's spelt "Performance" jardine01. You wouldn't believe that if you listened to my boss say it! ;D |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 13, 2011 15:00:16 GMT
You'll never see 40tph with current passenger habits like obstructing doors. Which is an annoying habit that is as old as since the underground had pneumatically controlled doors. It seems worse now than even a relatively short number of years ago. |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 13, 2011 16:03:46 GMT
I see now Because it is Moving Block so trains are driven according to the timetable. If you ask me and am sure allot of other people agree that the Jubilee line feels slower than it used to be with the old fixed block signaling system. Unless my train was in Protected Manual maybe? As it was not very quick off the mark. When 33 TPH is introduced next year will trains be much faster all the time?. 33 TPH works out at a train every 1 minute 48 seconds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2011 18:31:32 GMT
Broken record repeat phrases less frequently  |
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Post by plasmid on Aug 13, 2011 19:40:12 GMT
I see now Because it is Moving Block so trains are driven according to the timetable. If you ask me and am sure allot of other people agree that the Jubilee line feels slower than it used to be with the old fixed block signaling system. Unless my train was in Protected Manual maybe? As it was not very quick off the mark. When 33 TPH is introduced next year will trains be much faster all the time?. 33 TPH works out at a train every 1 minute 48 seconds. New Timetable next year before the Olympics. Though I have a feeling it will only be for 30tph. As there will be more trains they will inevitably be running quicker as the timetable will require each train to make the journey from Straford > Stanmore in less time. Probably around 4 minutes or so. There won't be much more trains though than the current amount I would like to think. If the new timetable wants trains to get from end to end 4 minutes quicker than that alone will give a higher frequency without the need for adding more trains. ................. As for the rest of you chaps talking about 40tph. Possible with a low fixed line speed and less carriages. Though it is the sole purpose of LUL to get customers quickly and safely therefore a low fixed line speed of 20mph or so would step away from that. Higher throughput isn't the answer. More carriages is the answer. A 12 car train on a 30tph line would serve greater capacity than a 7 car train running 36tph as is the signalling is designed for on the Jubilee. Although more costly today no thanks to Health & Safety. |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 13, 2011 21:45:47 GMT
Though 33tph might be the eventual maximum, it seems as though there is little will or perceived ability to do this until people stop holding doors as much. The frequency of such will only decrease upon lower loadings, which will be a result of extra capacity. So perhaps when the Jubilee is itself relieved by new lines, it'll be possible to run over 30tph. But then it wouldn't suprise me if someone works out its not cost effective for the loadings being gained...
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 13, 2011 22:36:41 GMT
People should not hold the doors open for example on the Central line somebody did that and the doors jammed resulting in us stuck in the station for about 5 minutes. SO a big delay here for the trains behind. I the problem of the train stopping when you lean on the doors it dosent seem to happen on the jubilee line thank god!
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 13, 2011 22:56:21 GMT
People should not hold the doors open for example on the Central line somebody did that and the doors jammed resulting in us stuck in the station for about 5 minutes. SO a big delay here for the trains behind. I the problem of the train stopping when you lean on the doors it dosent seem to happen on the jubilee line thank god! If that 5 minute delay for holding the doors open was like the 15 minute one that you mentioned a couple of days ago for being 'too close to the train in front' I'm sure it wasn't actually that long. 30 seconds maybe?  |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 14, 2011 7:32:19 GMT
No, The other Central line train I was on for 15 minutes was weeks ago. It has happened again but this time it was about 5 minutes.
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Post by plasmid on Aug 14, 2011 14:59:22 GMT
The only reason door holding doesn't happen on the Jubilee is because of the Platform Edge Doors.
I don't think punters would stand a chance holding up 2 sets of doors...not without getting trapped in the middle and if they did get trapped in the middle they probably deserved it.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 14, 2011 21:11:06 GMT
what about the Non Ped stations? I have seen people leaning against the doors on the Jubilee line before but the train has never jolted or came to a standsill. The 1992 stock is very sensitive if you lean against the door it sometimes comes to a grinding halt which many of us probally know.
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Post by edwin on Aug 15, 2011 0:40:15 GMT
The 96TS doors close more aggressively than the 92TS, and they feel heavier. I've never held them open, but I use the Jubilee nearly everyday and have observed people who have, they tend to have a lot more difficulty than they on the Central line. I don't remember a single occasion where the train has come to a stop when someone leans against the doors, which happens nearly every time i'm on the Central.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 15, 2011 8:12:27 GMT
I never hold the doors open ether I dont know why people do it. Lets face it by holing the doors open and it they jam thats a big delay. The 1996 stock is better built so maybe that why it does not do it. On the Central line I think when a train is in ATO and you lean on it it stops.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 15, 2011 15:45:00 GMT
Was out and about today, so took a jaunt up to Stanmore to check out the third platform now its open. Have to say the speed into terminals is a bit leisurely, would have thought this could safely be higher with CTBC?
Also, how come Stanmore 3's berth is about half a car length further down than 1?
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Post by tecchy on Aug 15, 2011 17:01:44 GMT
The 96TS doors close more aggressively than the 92TS, and they feel heavier. I've never held them open, but I use the Jubilee nearly everyday and have observed people who have, they tend to have a lot more difficulty than they on the Central line. I don't remember a single occasion where the train has come to a stop when someone leans against the doors, which happens nearly every time i'm on the Central. 1992's Doors are 35PSI which is "Not hard enough to kill, but just enough to close!" (Not my words!) |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 15, 2011 18:51:27 GMT
I think all the stations north of Finchely road is a bit leisurely with 27 trains a hour now the trains still seem to be in no rush. However on the East end of the line things seem to be much quicker the approach to Stratford is no nonsense just stright though untill it stops. When will the whole line just go go go instead of some parts being fast and others like a snail!
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Post by DrOne on Aug 15, 2011 21:44:03 GMT
I guess that depends on the station-to-station timings on the current timetable. This might just be something that can only be adjusted by replacing the timetable.
Despite what the trains "feel" like in any given section (which is always going to be anecdotal) we know that the trains run to a faster timetable end-to-end. As things bed in and reliability improves, this may give the robustness required to cut times a little further.
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