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Post by d7666 on Jan 4, 2011 18:03:50 GMT
I decided start new thread as things are beyond TBTC testing now.
Today my first day back at work after xmas break, and I had no idea that they were TBTC running in normal weekday traffic ... until I arrived at West Hampstead this morning and saw the bagged over conventional clockwork signals.
I've been on TBTC trains before, including a couple of DFA test trains prior to any of that being public running, 3 years ago, so TBTC is not new to me.
Since work moving me on from Jubilee to Central, I have been travelling West Hampstead <-> Bond Street ~1-3 times each week for the past ~20 or so months, so know it reasonably well, with its speed limits.
Today I found the TBTC ride both ways over those section to be an annoying constant on-off-on-off power cycle, in an on:off ratio of about 1.5 seconds on : 0.75 seconds off. Not disconcerting or uncomfortable , but enough to induce a sort of rocking motion by passengers like a ship in a gentle swell.
I know enough about TBTC ATO to know its being speed controlled by a VCC and the off:on thing is a way of maintaining a constant target speed **
** by target speed I mean in the general use of the term - not a specific ''Target Speed'' meaning as that may not be the appropriate term.
--
Nick
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Post by 21146 on Jan 4, 2011 18:28:18 GMT
Did a quick round trip from Stratford to Canning Town and back this afternoon. Trains certainly enter Stratford a lot faster but why still the long wait before the doors open? With the job up the wall (again) it was lucky the platform DMIs were accurate (this time) as there's no way of telling which train will depart first now that there are no station starters. Intermediate running speeds seemed a bit uneven, not necessarily how I would have driven manually. Also, how does the staff platform work in ATO? Previously all E/B trains were booked to call there "on request".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2011 21:03:36 GMT
As far as I'm aware, anyone needing a lift from the staff halt at Stratford depot will need to contact the Line Controller so that the train can be 'told' to stop there. Anyone travelling to the staff halt from West Ham will need to do the same, or ask the driver to drive in Protected Manual (TBTC) where the driver can brake manually.
As I said on the other thread, there are some faster sections of the line but I reckon at least as many that are slower - for no obvious reason. We are attempting to run the normal timetable (WTT10) so I can understand that there is little point in trains going much faster than before but it still seems almost arbitrary in places and certainly doesn't give the impression of a swift journey.
The 'on-off-on-off' speed d7666 mentions is, as you say, not disconcerting or uncomfortable but neither is it smooth and could in many places be avoided if the target speed was raised.
I did, however, think the berthing in the platform was pretty good, even in wet weather, in comparison to the other ATO lines.
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Post by jardine01 on Jul 3, 2011 17:52:43 GMT
On the 31st December 2010 I noticed that the signals were all bagged up aswell was the trains being driven in Protected Manual TBTC on the 31st December 2010? One train i was on was great no on and off power and the other one on the way back was stopping and starting then full power then full brake very annoying!!!
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Post by edwin on Jul 4, 2011 0:04:52 GMT
The Central line ATO is the same. You only really notice it on the fastest sections.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2011 23:37:03 GMT
Was on the Jub tonight from North Greenwich to London Bridge. The previous train had been out of service and there was a 2 minute wait until the next train that was in service. But this train make up for lost time! On the stretches between N Gren to Canary Wharf, Canary Wharf to Canada Water and Bermondsey to London Bridge, the train reached top speed so quick and so forced so much air down the tunnel that the pressure in the train changed and my ears popped. If these speeds are indicative of the Jub's future, post new timetable introduction (whenever this may transpire), I will be one paying customer that is very happy with the improvements LUL have made (even if they have been some time in the making  ). |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2011 22:33:36 GMT
The new timetable is supposedly in place with 27 tph in peaks. Yet in one respect, performance doesn't seem to have improved. Deceleration to station stops, especially north of Finchley Road, still seems leisurely and time-wasting, nothing like the rapid, smooth deceleration on the Central and Victoria lines. There must be a few more minutes squeezable from the schedule from a honed approach profile. Is this awaiting further software upgrade, or is there some reason for this more leisurely approach?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2011 0:38:03 GMT
Was on the Jubilee very late tonight coming back home from the Iron Maiden concert at the O2 and the 96ts I got to Baker St from North Greenwich was not very fast at all. Like linus has said above, more time could be squeezed.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 7, 2011 8:46:15 GMT
You would think with the new timetable in trains will be going full pelt they are not only really in the tunnel sections you can see a difference in speed only between some stations though. It is disapointing considering we have waited 2 years for this new signaling system and in my opinion the preformance is sometimes worse than a Manually driven train. I rode the Jubilee line a few days ago between West Hamstead and Stanmore very slow and gradual braking things need to be sorted out why cant these just run on full belt all the time like the Central and Victoria Lines?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2011 11:02:13 GMT
I don't know why this keeps coming up. As far as I can see, TBTC isn't about running trains as fast as you possibly can all the time. They will go fast when they have to. If they go as fast as possible all the time you'll get gaps in the service. If they're not going as fast as you'd like, then the system, I would think, is working in that it's trying to keep the service even. Since TBTC was introduced, I've seen on the DMIs services with uneven gaps which, after a few minutes, seem to even out without the need for holding a train in the platform.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 7, 2011 11:58:46 GMT
Yes but on the central and Victoria line they run on full pelt and there is hardly ever any gaps in the service.
I thought TBTC is supposed to run trains faster and closer together? If things are not going to inprove now with
The new timetable when what will? When 33 tph starts next year hopefully things will inprove if not well personally
TBTC has been a let down bring back manual driving!
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Post by br7mt on Aug 7, 2011 12:19:35 GMT
Out of curiosity - why do you place so much emphasis on manual driving?
One thing that SelTrac does really well is self-regulation of the service without the need for input from the control centre staff. I suspect what you have experienced is some of that self-regulation. Don't forget that a train stopped for whatever reason many station ahead will have an effect on the whole line service as tph goes up. The Jubilee, like all other lines, is not immune to spurious PEA incidents and passengers falling ill on a train, the latter seems quite common these days.
Actually one thing that has been commented on is that SelTrac does seem to allow very quick recovery from minor perturbations in the service compared with fixed block systems.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 7, 2011 12:43:37 GMT
Don't get me wrong ATO provides a fast and frequent service and drives the train beyond how most Humans would drive. However though what I am saying is that preformance is patchy some trains seem to go full belt and others really slow due to timetable regulation. But back when the Jubilee line was tripcock last year I don't recall trains going slower because they are early. I though the job of driver is to keep with in the timetable. Genrally if you are early you go easy and if you are on time you just drive normally if you are late you pelt it to try and make up for lost time. But how can the Central and Victoria line manage to provide continus Preformance and not the Jubilee line? I thought when TBTC came into use it would be a big difference on the Jubilee line with rapid power and braking but really sometimes with the timetable regulation server it drives the train at a snails pace. Sorry if am being a bit full on here but this regulation server needs to be sorted out for the olmpics aswell.
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Post by andypurk on Aug 7, 2011 13:40:10 GMT
Don't get me wrong ATO provides a fast and frequent service and drives the train beyond how most Humans would drive. However though what I am saying is that preformance is patchy some trains seem to go full belt and others really slow due to timetable regulation. But back when the Jubilee line was tripcock last year I don't recall trains going slower because they are early. I though the job of driver is to keep with in the timetable. Genrally if you are early you go easy and if you are on time you just drive normally if you are late you pelt it to try and make up for lost time. But how can the Central and Victoria line manage to provide continus Preformance and not the Jubilee line? I thought when TBTC came into use it would be a big difference on the Jubilee line with rapid power and braking but really sometimes with the timetable regulation server it drives the train at a snails pace. Sorry if am being a bit full on here but this regulation server needs to be sorted out for the olmpics aswell. Surely it is better for a train to run at a slightly slower speed between stations than running faster and then having to wait at the next station. I've seen a lot of this waiting for a short while (upto a minute longer station stop than might be expected) on the Victoria line since the 2009 stock took over the full service. |
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Post by North End on Aug 7, 2011 14:44:57 GMT
Don't get me wrong ATO provides a fast and frequent service and drives the train beyond how most Humans would drive. However though what I am saying is that preformance is patchy some trains seem to go full belt and others really slow due to timetable regulation. But back when the Jubilee line was tripcock last year I don't recall trains going slower because they are early. I though the job of driver is to keep with in the timetable. Genrally if you are early you go easy and if you are on time you just drive normally if you are late you pelt it to try and make up for lost time. But how can the Central and Victoria line manage to provide continus Preformance and not the Jubilee line? I thought when TBTC came into use it would be a big difference on the Jubilee line with rapid power and braking but really sometimes with the timetable regulation server it drives the train at a snails pace. Sorry if am being a bit full on here but this regulation server needs to be sorted out for the olmpics aswell. The Central Line went through a similar process when it went ATO, and for a few months trains were frequently held at controlled starting signals, until the timetable was re-written with revised running times more in line with ATO performance. I think I'm right in saying this Jubilee timetable is still an interim, with a more aggressive timetable still to come. Having said that, the TBTC train regulation is just horrible - going slow according to the timetable is one thing, but there's no need for the constant brake-motor-brake-motor that we see with TBTC. The most efficient and comfortable way to drive is to motor up to a given speed and then coast. TBTC doesn't seem to have this capability. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2011 14:53:22 GMT
The "constant brake-motor-brake-motor" surely isnt doing any good for the motors aswell? If you keep applying power and coasting in five second bursts as per TBTC does occasionally that must strain the motors alot. I highly suspect this is also why the 1992 stock are prone to motor flashovers.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 7, 2011 16:55:38 GMT
Cant they solve the problem of the on and off power? The central and Victoria lines just Accelarate or Brake. Come the next few years I bet the trains will be having problems just like the 1992 stock with Blown out motors.
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Post by br7mt on Aug 7, 2011 18:04:31 GMT
I assume that the ATO performance is intrinsic to the SelTrac software algorithms as the DLR behaves similarly on the faster sections.
I would treat the Central Line separately - the 92TS is quite different in design concept to 96TS and the motors are definitely more robust. Besides, the 96TS will soon be going through HO so any problems will get captured quickly and rectified.
Regards,
Dan
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fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Aug 7, 2011 18:37:19 GMT
Is the robustness related to the inherant design of DC vs AC motors?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2011 18:50:13 GMT
I assume that the ATO performance is intrinsic to the SelTrac software algorithms as the DLR behaves similarly on the faster sections. I would treat the Central Line separately - the 92TS is quite different in design concept to 96TS and the motors are definitely more robust. Besides, the 96TS will soon be going through HO so any problems will get captured quickly and rectified. Regards, Dan Good point actually, forgot about the lower quality mechanics in the 1992 stock compared to the alstom fleets. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2011 18:58:12 GMT
Yes but on the central and Victoria line they run on full pelt and there is hardly ever any gaps in the service. I thought TBTC is supposed to run trains faster and closer together? If things are not going to inprove now with The new timetable when what will? When 33 tph starts next year hopefully things will inprove if not well personally TBTC has been a let down bring back manual driving! It's no good comparing with the Central Line or Victoria Line, they are different beasts with different systems of regulation. The central line does have gaps sometimes as it does other features such as blocking back at white city. As someone else mentioned, this is not the final timetable. At the end of the day, efficient regulation is more important than higher speeds. THere are all sorts of things that causes gaps, but i've been impressed with how the new system quickly evens out the service |
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Post by plasmid on Aug 7, 2011 20:11:14 GMT
TFL are using the Olympics as some sort of a deadline to get the upgrade works complete. Just because the signalling is now in place doesn't mean it's now complete. Some boffin will now need to work out on paper a new timetable and this won't realistically come into play until the Olympics.
Motoring on and off - Dan has mentioned a few times now...the 96ts fleet is about to undergo an overhaul which will see bogies, gearboxes etc. refreshed / replaced as appropriate.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 7, 2011 21:10:39 GMT
Will the New gearboxes give higher preformance? Also will the motors be replaced on some trains?
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Post by br7mt on Aug 7, 2011 21:44:19 GMT
I think it can best be described as a mechanical refurbishment. Basically rectifying 10+ years of wear. Same basic gearcase design (same ratio) and same motors, so no upgrade there. There might be some subtle changes to tolerances and stuff to help improve reliability but I don't believe any major modifications are planned.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by DrOne on Aug 9, 2011 18:36:24 GMT
As nice as it is for trains to "run at full pelt" all the time, the most important improvement for the millions of Jubilee line passengers who rely on the service daily would be a consistently good and reliable service.
With the short period of TBTC running we've had it seems to be moving some way towards this. If gradual tweaks are required to ensure consistency and reliability then I'm ok with that.
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 9, 2011 18:40:25 GMT
Really I think if people want to see Jubilee line trains run use it when there are delays i used it the other week then there was delays and it was pritty fast but other times it feels like a milk float!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 19:22:44 GMT
Thats true, the old system was pants. Probably the most unreliable on the network at one point. There must have been a signal failiure at least a couple of times every week. TBTC seems to be slightly less unreliable than the old and its probably going to improve. did have a very speedy journey yesterday too.
There was also a failiure at Wembley earlier too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 12:00:08 GMT
There was also a failure at Wembley earlier too. I hadn't been on the Jubilee Line since I last wrote here, but my next experience with it, yesterday, was a disaster as well. It shows what things are like for real passengers. We have overseas visitors staying, who had gone on their own to Oxford Street to do shopping, then to come back to Canary Wharf to meet many of us at 6 o clock in the evening. Carefully arranged as this is a simple journey. Got telephone call at 5.30 to say there were no trains at Bond Street, also they were now worried about all the evening troubles they were reading in the newspaper. Went out into Canary Wharf centre to find huge queues at the DLR station, the escalators up to the platform closed down as so many people up there, always a sign of no Jubilee Line once again. Message that Jubilee Line broken down, yet again at Wembley Park. DLR trains seemed to be running but I know when this happens that Bank station gets closed because of too many people, and the they could then be stuck somewhere. Walked over to Jubilee Line station to find what is happening, big queue outside because only one escalator is going down, all others going up, suppose this is a control of crowds. Squashed on to escalator and went down to station where only one tickets gate of the 10 or more is allowing people in, maybe 300 people in big crowd. Could not get near any of the station employees to ask what was happening, no notices shown at all. There is one electric notice after the gates, difficult to get close enough to see but I did - to see it was giving information abut next weekend, nothing about now. 30 minutes has passed. Mr Diana turns up with idea. Phone friends again, yes still outside Bond Street, lots of questioning that the Central Line is working there. Tell them to get Central Line to Stratford station, which needs explanation. Did you know that foreign language courses in English do not teach words like "Eastbound"? Mr D sprints to Heron Quays, gets into DLR train, sees Canary Wharf platforms so full now many people not getting in, so stays in, gets out at West India Quay, runs underneath, gets next train from Stratford back to Canary Wharf, stays in it there, goes to Stratford, manages to get there before them. I would not have thought of anything like this. Turns up back at Canary Wharf from Stratford one hour later on the DLR with them. Needing to phone this overseas mobile telephone to give continuous instructions has probably cost us £10 or more in telephone cost. |
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Post by uzairjubilee on Aug 10, 2011 12:57:49 GMT
The "constant brake-motor-brake-motor I've been experiencing this as well recently. Doesn't seem too good. Thats true, the old system was pants. Probably the most unreliable on the network at one point. There must have been a signal failiure at least a couple of times every week. TBTC seems to be slightly less unreliable than the old and its probably going to improve. did have a very speedy journey yesterday too. There was also a failiure at Wembley earlier too. I check the TfL website nearly everyday and there are still quite a lot of signal failures and/or broken down trains on the Jubilee  . As nice as it is for trains to "run at full pelt" all the time, the most important improvement for the millions of Jubilee line passengers who rely on the service daily would be a consistently good and reliable service. With the short period of TBTC running we've had it seems to be moving some way towards this. If gradual tweaks are required to ensure consistency and reliability then I'm ok with that. You're absolutely right - I believe reliability will improve even more within the next few weeks. By the way, what's the upcoming engineering work between Stanmore and West Hampstead for? |
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Post by jardine01 on Aug 10, 2011 16:06:25 GMT
Your right about the old signaling system not being reliable. TBTC will make a big difference but really I don't think the true upgrade is finished until we get 33 TPH. Hopefully with 33TPH trains should always get a high target speed as they will need to go faster to get to the station on time. Is 33 TPH a train every 1- 2 minutes?
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