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Post by splashdown on Oct 25, 2010 5:57:26 GMT
First I am still very confused where to put new threads so Mods move if you want to.
Reported 1st Sept:
Mitsubishi Electric Corp said that the London Underground began using in August the Japanese company’s air conditioners, the first such equipment to be installed in the world’s oldest subway system. (I assume they mean in the offices) In a deal worth about 3.3 billion yen, Mitsubishi will deliver 1,402 air conditioners for passenger rail cars and 380 for the driver’s space by 2015 as well as provide maintenance services through 2018 for the system serving the British capital and its vicinity. For the first time since its opening in 1863, the London Underground is equipping its trains with air conditioners because of the intense summer heat that has engulfed parts of Europe in recent years.'
How many days do the trains really need air conditioning. It is very expensive and I am sure money could be used for better purposes.
Japanese summers can last more than 2 months with a constant day/night temperature of over 30 degrees so air conditioning on trains is considered important. English summers last 2 weeks with a top of 35 and an average well below.
The main problems for the tube are over packed trains and the worry of being stuck in a tunnel for a long time. Improving the infrastructure and evacuating trains seems a better way forward than spending money on air conditioning.
However if it is to be fitted I have a couple of suggestions. Firstly have a cooling unit that fits in half of one end carriages with connections to all carriages. Make it portable so it can be used only during the summer.
Secondly use a system of sucking cold air into the tunnel from one head wall to one tail wall. This has an added advantage of assisting the train along.
Or maybe even just hand out some kind of cooling towel or ice to customers as they arrive at the station and collect when they finish their journey.
Personally I would have trains travel through the tunnels pumping out dry ice, but maybe it might cause some breathing difficulties and upset the environmentalists.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 6:15:04 GMT
English summers last longer and longer these days. Not to mention that trains need air conditioning for other purposes too - like to cool down the train when it is filled to the rim with passengers (especially when the train is not moving for some reason or moving slowly).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 6:36:12 GMT
How many days do the trains really need air conditioning. It is very expensive and I am sure money could be used for better purposes. Quite a lot. Even if it isn't very hot outside, packed trains become very hot indeed, very fast, especially if they're stopped. Define "better purposes". Air conditioning is supposed to be a godsend for baked passengers! Japanese summers can last more than 2 months with a constant day/night temperature of over 30 degrees so air conditioning on trains is considered important. English summers last 2 weeks with a top of 35 and an average well below. As has been said up-post, the trains in tunnels get even hotter. Temperatures are rising. Furthermore, do not assume that air conditioning is only cold. It could very well be a full package deal of HVAC (Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning) that is useful year-round. The main problems for the tube are over packed trains and the worry of being stuck in a tunnel for a long time. Improving the infrastructure and evacuating trains seems a better way forward than spending money on air conditioning. "Improving the infrastructure" is right, yes, but it covers everything, including installing air conditioning! Evacuating trains stuck in between stations, aka track detrainments, is a last resort; haven't the Big People like Colin and Artery made that point? I'm pretty sure they did, and possibly to you directly. However if it is to be fitted I have a couple of suggestions. Firstly have a cooling unit that fits in half of one end carriages with connections to all carriages. Make it portable so it can be used only during the summer. Are you suggesting articulated air conditioning units, like articulated bogies? Oh God. 1) They will almost certainly be a pain to maintain, and heavy modifications will have to be made to the roof. 2) If they are portable, they will vanish. It's happened before. Secondly use a system of sucking cold air into the tunnel from one head wall to one tail wall. This has an added advantage of assisting the train along. Are you suggesting making the deep level lines into a sort of partial atmospheric railway? That wouldn't really help the motion of the trains, but it will help ventilation, which is a major issue. Or maybe even just hand out some kind of cooling towel or ice to customers as they arrive at the station and collect when they finish their journey. A method used before was giving out free bottles of water. I believe it worked. You are still highly encouraged to bring water. This obviously conflicts with the lack of sufficient toilets, but that's a different matter. Personally I would have trains travel through the tunnels pumping out dry ice, but maybe it might cause some breathing difficulties and upset the environmentalists. Oh God, no! They have a proposal based on water ice, though; it's train mounted, and requires open areas. It's been explained elsewhere on this Forum. Please remember that conventional air conditioning has already been applied to the S stock and appears to work well. I rather think this contract applies to the S stock.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 25, 2010 8:16:57 GMT
Evacuating trains stuck in between stations, aka track detrainments, is a last resort; haven't the Big People like Colin and Artery made that point? I'm pretty sure they did, and possibly to you directly.
I wanted to talk about air conditioning so I will keep this short. Trains stuck in tunnels should be evacuated after 30 minutes. As is apparent from recent events this rule is stretched to unacceptable lengths and should be re-enforced by more robust procedures and regulations. It is not a last resort it is a requirement under existing rules.
My point being that the need for cooling down passengers is less if they are not kept trapped underground for excessive amounts of time. The cost of incorporating air conditioning has to be balanced against easier fixes like keeping the trains moving. Most underground systems around the world seem quite capable of having their trains moving between stations unlike LUL that runs trains from stick to stick.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 10:46:17 GMT
I wanted to talk about air conditioning so I will keep this short. Trains stuck in tunnels should be evacuated after 30 minutes. As is apparent from recent events this rule is stretched to unacceptable lengths and should be re-enforced by more robust procedures and regulations. It is not a last resort it is a requirement under existing rules. If the train can be shifted to a station, it will be. I do not dispute that response times are sub-optimal, however; if it is the only way to get passengers out, then only is it used. That is what I mean by "last resort". If it wasn't required by existing rules, why would it be done? My point being that the need for cooling down passengers is less if they are not kept trapped underground for excessive amounts of time. The cost of incorporating air conditioning has to be balanced against easier fixes like keeping the trains moving. Most underground systems around the world seem quite capable of having their trains moving between stations unlike LUL that runs trains from stick to stick. My point is that LU trains will require cooling regardless of whether or not they are held at sticks for indecent periods of time. Please don't use the "other systems" card. We're sick and tired of having to explain how and why it doesn't apply to London Underground.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 25, 2010 13:11:40 GMT
O.K. lets make this simple:
If trains move from one station to another without stopping.
and
If trains that get stuck have all the customers removed in 30 minutes.
Is there any need for LUL to invest in cooling the carriages down for customers.
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cso
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Post by cso on Oct 25, 2010 13:16:29 GMT
Yes.
Even with stopping, the journey from White City to Mile End on the Central Line can be very warm when the carriages are full of people.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 13:36:32 GMT
O.K. lets make this simple: If trains move from one station to another without stopping. and If trains that get stuck have all the customers removed in 30 minutes. Is there any need for LUL to invest in cooling the carriages down for customers. As cso said, please be aware the having a full car means more heat inside it. As I have said, the Underground will only get hotter. It matters not if the trains get held at sticks, or if people are trapped mid-tunnel. Temperatures are already intolerable and cooling is desperately needed. Certainly, stopping and failures mean the car gets even hotter; that I do not dispute. What I am trying to make known to you is that climate control, especially cooling, for the Tube is an absolute must if the system is to remain useful to London. If we follow your logic, the Tube'll be closed all summer at the current rate, or will be sued for baked passengers/riders/ customers. If you don't think it's hot enough, go squeeze yourself into a packed deep-level car on a warm day and enjoy the sauna. (You'll have to bring your own towel, I fear.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 14:10:41 GMT
Agreed Andrew. Must be done in an integrated fashion though. There is no sense cooling the cars until the tunnels and stations are properly cooled though. If only the trains were cooled, they would have the net effect of heating the tunnel even more, and benefit of having cooled cars would be lost as the cars would take hot air from the stations on each time it stopped, reducing any benefit.
The best solution would be to control the tunnel and station temperatures and just have normal vent systems on the trains (but drawing air in from the tunnel at a reasonable temperature rather than the 30-40 degree tunnel temperatures that can be experienced in the summer).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 14:56:54 GMT
Agreed Andrew. Must be done in an integrated fashion though. There is no sense cooling the cars until the tunnels and stations are properly cooled though. If only the trains were cooled, they would have the net effect of heating the tunnel even more, and benefit of having cooled cars would be lost as the cars would take hot air from the stations on each time it stopped, reducing any benefit. The best solution would be to control the tunnel and station temperatures and just have normal vent systems on the trains (but drawing air in from the tunnel at a reasonable temperature rather than the 30-40 degree tunnel temperatures that can be experienced in the summer). Your support means very much to me; I agree with you too, on most counts. The issue of having fridges for trains and ovens for stations is quite one in New York. You wait on a hot platform having a sauna, and then step into a meat locker of a train. Or so I hear/read. I believe the best, and most expensive, way is to use PEDs. However, that will happen when pigs fly with Rolls-Royce jet engines and heated food troughs. I regret to believe, however, that your idea is the "best"; "ideal", perhaps. It'll cost too much. I believe that stations should be cooled, while the tunnels are force-ventilated like there's no tomorrow to try to get the heat out. Some limited cooling should be installed on trains too. Cooling systems should ideally be based on water, especially underground water, or River Thames water (at a stretch) for stations; ice for trains. I believe that to be the most practical course. If anyone has a better idea, please step forward and put it forth to us.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 14:58:30 GMT
The problem is, we Brits just are not used to these sort of temperatures. I've never witnessed or experienced, personally how our European or other International counterparts cope. Agreed, installing HVAC systems retrospectively into a system not able to accommodate it, is hideously expensive, but one that should be thought about for future modernisation. Yes, temperatures are rising, worldwide it seems and I don't think anything will reduce it. The heat has to be dispersed somewhere!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 15:01:52 GMT
You cope by getting used to it (within limits, obviously). Like Artery says, British people simply cannot take this sort of heat, hence my use of the word "intolerable".
Everyone agrees that the temperatures will rise, and that the excess heat has to go somewhere!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 15:10:22 GMT
If people can't cope with the heat on the tube for say 30 minutes, how the heck do people manage when they jet off to Tunisia of somewhere for the likes of 10 days and sit in the sun all day?
"Oh different kind of heat" I hear you say... Heat is heat!!! Makes no difference where in the world you are, or if you are inside a 'slow roasting cooker' as I heard one person describe the tube system! ;D
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cso
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Post by cso on Oct 25, 2010 15:17:25 GMT
The two poeple I know (my housemate and I) both don't like the heat on the Tube... and neither of us jet off to foreign climes for holidays.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 15:18:06 GMT
If people can't cope with the heat on the tube for say 30 minutes, how the heck do people manage when they jet off to Tunisia of somewhere for the likes of 10 days and sit in the sun all day? "Oh different kind of heat" I hear you say... Heat is heat!!! Makes no difference where in the world you are, or if you are inside a 'slow roasting cooker' as I heard one person describe the tube system! ;D For example, in Malaysia, tourists don't like the heat (nobody does), but everyone takes it in their stride. LOL. Artery, have you seen a cartoon showing a Tube train as a series of microwave ovens instead of cars? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 15:19:46 GMT
The two poeple I know (my housemate and I) both don't like the heat on the Tube... and neither of us jet off to foreign climes for holidays. If anyone professes a genuine liking for the heat on the Tube, we have an earthshaking discovery. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 25, 2010 16:03:38 GMT
Went for a night out in London a couple months back, friends birthday. Was pouring down, utterly pouring!! Eventually we had to get a Bakerloo from Piccadilly to Embankment. I tell you something for nothing, the heat was deffinitely a selling point that night!! That is it was, untill the station shut down because of a power failure on the Bakerloo.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 16:07:17 GMT
Went for a night out in London a couple months back, friends birthday. Was pouring down, utterly pouring!! Eventually we had to get a Bakerloo from Piccadilly to Embankment. I tell you something for nothing, the heat was deffinitely a selling point that night!! That is it was, untill the station shut down because of a power failure on the Bakerloo. EARTHSHAKING DISCOVERY!!! ;D ;D ;D I should have said, a genuine liking of the heat when it is not pouring/snowing/hailing outside. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 16:13:32 GMT
Ventilation shafts work well, on the 1940's section of the jubilee line (Finchley Road to Baker St) there are quite a few and you can hear the air pressure and a slamming on the train doors as you go past them, Iv'e always found that section of the line to be quite cool in summer as well as on the extension, sadly theres no space to dig ventilation shafts in central london anymore and the cost would probably be monumental.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Oct 25, 2010 17:07:22 GMT
I wouldn't say I'm a lover of the heat, but it never bothers me that much....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2010 18:17:05 GMT
Eventually we had to get a Bakerloo from Piccadilly to Embankment. I tell you something for nothing, the heat was deffinitely a selling point that night!! Every time I go SB on the Bakerloo around that area, it feels like going into a furnace, yet the NB is cooler. Difference in ventilation shafts?
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 25, 2010 20:45:04 GMT
The two poeple I know (my housemate and I) both don't like the heat on the Tube... and neither of us jet off to foreign climes for holidays. I go on holiday in Wales (where it rains a lot) and The Alps (where I ski a lot), yet I still love travelling on The Tube no matter what the temperature.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 26, 2010 1:05:26 GMT
So what is the temperature in a train carriage in London?
Is there any temperature information to compare London to other countries?
I have lived through a few hot summers in Japan. Outside temperature reaching 40 degrees. The underground trains do feel cooler but sometimes they are still 35 degrees. Human bodies can only feel variation. However any prolonged stays in a train do start getting hot.
Normally for me 30 degrees is comfortable and 35 is bearable anything above 35 is uncomfortable.
Personally cooling train carriages is not the answer. Cooling the tunnels is. This creates a difference which will be felt through existing air conditioning units.
I would go further and use the heat from tunnels to raise the temperature of the stations as then stepping from the platform into the train will feel good.
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Someone mentioned that hot temperature always feels the same however this is not quite true as there is a dry heat and a wet heat. High humidity is much harder to cope with. It is worth thinking about the humidity levels in tunnels as I expect them to be quite high. Reducing humidity would make people more comfortable.
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Post by splashdown on Oct 26, 2010 2:53:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 7:08:52 GMT
Standard AC is fine in nice wide tunnels like the Sub-Surface Lines or the New York Subway which is why S Stock will have AC but in the narrow, deep level tunnels there is simply nowhere for the heat to go, the benefits of AC inside the saloons would be negated by the temperature outside. In addition the tunnels are fully of equipment, signals, comms, power and if these overheat they stop working, not a good idea.
Basically this is going to cost A LOT of money which simply isn’t (and has never been) available. The DfT have just cut TfL’s budget, the GLA don’t have the ability to raise the kind of money needed and after the collapse of PPP any private finance deal would need so many conditions to ensure that the taxpayer didn’t end up footing the bill again that the bankers wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.
Sorry but “real world” answer is that you are going to be sweating for a long time to come.
Splashdown, would that paint work under the inch of dust that would accumulate after a week?
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Post by splashdown on Oct 26, 2010 9:12:34 GMT
LUL can always bring back the fluffers.
If the real world answer is money will stop any cooling down then it is important to keep trains moving during the hot summer months and enforce an attitude to remove customers quick from trains that are stuck.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 10:50:18 GMT
The most realistic solution is more ventilation. Cooling will be nice, but ventilation has to come first. Ventilation, ventilation, ventilation. This is the mantra I learned from Charlie J. ;D Well, sort of. Splashdown, why do you keep chanting about moving trains and quick detrainments? I'm sure you know of the word "obvious".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 12:01:56 GMT
LUL can always bring back the fluffers. If the real world answer is money will stop any cooling down then it is important to keep trains moving during the hot summer months and enforce an attitude to remove customers quick from trains that are stuck. You've answered your own question! Money. We had a Tunnel Cleaning Train. Its knackered. You say keep the trains moving: Unforseen and unpredictive events. Person collapses and falls on the track. What then? Continue running and leave them there? Come on!!!! Think about it....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 12:08:23 GMT
LUL can always bring back the fluffers. If the real world answer is money will stop any cooling down then it is important to keep trains moving during the hot summer months and enforce an attitude to remove customers quick from trains that are stuck. You've answered your own question! Money. We had a Tunnel Cleaning Train. Its knackered. +1 I forgot the Other Mantra. Money Money Money... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 22:03:08 GMT
LUL can always bring back the fluffers. If the real world answer is money will stop any cooling down then it is important to keep trains moving during the hot summer months and enforce an attitude to remove customers quick from trains that are stuck. Maybe you haven’t noticed but RMT and TSSA are currently in dispute with LUL over job cuts, don’t think they are about to bring back anyone. If all trains ran to timetable there would be no stopping between stations, sadly various elements conspire to disrupt things. I was on the last West Ruislip train yesterday and from Liverpool Street to White City I was staring at the rear lights of the last Ealing Broadway which should have been three minutes ahead of me, no idea why, it was just running late for some reason. That was at close of traffic, how do you suggest we keep things running in the peak when passengers block doors etc?
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