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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2011 21:16:25 GMT
Waterloo failure was a physically broken set of points - nothing to do with TBTC as such. Perhaps the increased speed is taking its toll on the track already!!
Tonight the Jubilee felt like the Central line - really rapid and my ears were popping and the doors were banging with the air presure the speed was so much faster than before - I assume this is what the system can do when trying to catch up time. Very impressive and looks good for the future.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2011 22:33:46 GMT
Uh oh...
Service update at 22:00 : Severe delays are occurring due to an earlier signal failure at West Hampstead.
This weekend it's suspended between West Hampstead and Stanmore, I wonder if it will be TBTC or tripcock?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2011 23:16:08 GMT
Yet another points failure - this time at West Hampstead.
Service only suspended Sunday I believe - TBTC service running Stratford to West Hampstead, with TBTC testing for the remaining section north of here.
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 8, 2011 11:04:51 GMT
Waterloo failure was a physically broken set of points - nothing to do with TBTC as such. Perhaps the increased speed is taking its toll on the track already!! My understanding of the incident at Waterloo is that a points indicator bar broke, so the points lost indication. The original plan was to secure the points for through running so trains could operate at normal speeds. However, the new system seems to have prevented normal speed codes, even with the points secured, so they had to get the bar replaced. This must have extended the delay. Is this going to be the pattern in future or will the system have to be modified? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2011 11:08:42 GMT
Correction to my earlier post – it now appears from the TfL site there will be a closure north of West Hampstead on 22/23 Jan, with no Met south of Harrow. So still this coming Sunday may be the last chance for Met/ S-stock stopping at Willesden Green. According to www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/livetravelnews/realtime/tube/track-closures.pdf which covers all works to 5th June, there are no more Jubilee closures planned. Although there must be work at Finchley Road to remove the defunct southbound Jub-Met crossover and adjacent rubbish bullhead track. Presumably trains will run the full length of the line in TBTC/ATO, only carrying passengers between West Hampstead and Stratford and in test mode to/from Stanmore, with fallback to service reversal at West Hampstead if things go pear-shaped. And also presumably full service throughout forever on the new signalling is planned from Monday 24th Jan. With faster timetabling and more trains at some point when fully bedded in. Whoopee. |
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 8, 2011 11:08:56 GMT
Well, the Thales (formerly Alcatel, formerly Seltrac) system on the Jubilee works on the basis of 25m long fixed loops but the position of the front of the train can be adjusted within the loop. You can see the loops on the track. |
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 8, 2011 11:24:06 GMT
I must say I find the actual movement of the trains annoying bordering on embarrassing at times. I don't want to appear too precious about driving technique because many passengers probably don't care too much about the lack of a smooth ride. But I would also like to know if there is a way of preventing the 'thermostat' stop-start as the train tries to keep at a target speed. It is particularly jarring when the speed is slow - and the speed is very slow at times as you are effectively being regulated in section rather than in the platform. It's not a bad thing to avoid long platform dwell times but I don't think they've quite got the balance right. I like your expression "Thermostat" stop-start. This "hunting" at speed limits is a problem with all ATO systems unless it is carefully designed out and it rarely is. The Central Line has it too. On the Victoria Line, the crudeness of the control system and the inertia of the traction equipment makes it much less noticable. The trouble is that the speed bands are fixed as safety limits. You want the train to run as fast as possible within the limits, so the train accelerates until it hits the top speed, when it shuts off. It then remotors when the speed falls by a km/h or two. Repeat ad nauseam. Solution? Mmm - difficult, because you have to have software that will respond rapidly and safely under all conditions - normal running, following the train in front, signal stops etc. and eliminating the hunting requires design and testing effort. I think the answer might lie in the traction control on the train as well as the ATO line characteristic data. Trouble is, it would need the traction control engineers to talk to the signal engineers - even more difficult! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2011 12:26:30 GMT
Correction to my earlier post – it now appears from the TfL site there will be a closure north of West Hampstead on 22/23 Jan, with no Met south of Harrow. So still this coming Sunday may be the last chance for Met/ S-stock stopping at Willesden Green. According to www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/livetravelnews/realtime/tube/track-closures.pdf which covers all works to 5th June, there are no more Jubilee closures planned. Although there must be work at Finchley Road to remove the defunct southbound Jub-Met crossover and adjacent rubbish bullhead track. Presumably trains will run the full length of the line in TBTC/ATO, only carrying passengers between West Hampstead and Stratford and in test mode to/from Stanmore, with fallback to service reversal at West Hampstead if things go pear-shaped. And also presumably full service throughout forever on the new signalling is planned from Monday 24th Jan. With faster timetabling and more trains at some point when fully bedded in. Whoopee. No, system will be split in two for the north end TBTC work - different test software and train stops will be still there and active, so trains require modifications to stop them tripping - not enough time to peg all train stops for one day. You can't have LU running revenue and Thales testing on the same system, it just won't work, so there will be in effect two TBTC systems running, but not joined up. Certain trains will no doubt be allocated to the testing area only, the rest for Revenue. I thought it was March / Easter before the north end would be ready at the earliest, so there must be more closures to come - just none agreed yet? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2011 12:30:40 GMT
Waterloo failure was a physically broken set of points - nothing to do with TBTC as such. Perhaps the increased speed is taking its toll on the track already!! My understanding of the incident at Waterloo is that a points indicator bar broke, so the points lost indication. The original plan was to secure the points for through running so trains could operate at normal speeds. However, the new system seems to have prevented normal speed codes, even with the points secured, so they had to get the bar replaced. This must have extended the delay. Is this going to be the pattern in future or will the system have to be modified? If you can't get indications back, how would this be different to the old system - you wouldn't get a green or an RS indicator either so would have to trip past the trainstop each train. TBTC would be much the same in this respect surely? |
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Post by tubeprune on Jan 8, 2011 14:34:13 GMT
My understanding of the incident at Waterloo is that a points indicator bar broke, so the points lost indication. The original plan was to secure the points for through running so trains could operate at normal speeds. However, the new system seems to have prevented normal speed codes, even with the points secured, so they had to get the bar replaced. This must have extended the delay. Is this going to be the pattern in future or will the system have to be modified? If you can't get indications back, how would this be different to the old system - you wouldn't get a green or an RS indicator either so would have to trip past the trainstop each train. TBTC would be much the same in this respect surely? Of course, what was I thinking? *smacks head in self disgust* |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2011 21:01:34 GMT
Under the old system, the trains would trip past the trainstop, and resume normal speed after the slow speed delay expires. Under the new system, trains would presumably have to drop down to Restricted Manual and continue in Restricted Manual until a TBTC entry point, where they could switch back to TBTC mode, which could be quite a long distance.
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Post by North End on Jan 8, 2011 21:36:12 GMT
Under the old system, the trains would trip past the trainstop, and resume normal speed after the slow speed delay expires. Under the new system, trains would presumably have to drop down to Restricted Manual and continue in Restricted Manual until a TBTC entry point, where they could switch back to TBTC mode, which could be quite a long distance. One of the good features of the Cetntral Line system is that as soon as the train picks up a target speed, it can resume normal working in Coded Manual. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2011 0:00:00 GMT
Under TBTC it could have gone in RM over the secured 'failed' points, then once clear, back into ATO. But any tripping past or similar destroys the service the same way, so I don't think TBTC is any worse than traditional systems in this scenario.
You won't need to drive to an entry point before going back into ATO because the train is still communicating and knows where it is - only the point indications have failed here, not the trains computers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2011 23:06:53 GMT
Today was fast enough between stations but a tedious crawl into every platform. Down to 23 mph at platform entrance - that is way too slow but hopefully not a permanent adjustment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2011 11:42:51 GMT
I must say I find the actual movement of the trains annoying bordering on embarrassing at times. I don't want to appear too precious about driving technique because many passengers probably don't care too much about the lack of a smooth ride. But I would also like to know if there is a way of preventing the 'thermostat' stop-start as the train tries to keep at a target speed. It is particularly jarring when the speed is slow - and the speed is very slow at times as you are effectively being regulated in section rather than in the platform. It's not a bad thing to avoid long platform dwell times but I don't think they've quite got the balance right. I like your expression "Thermostat" stop-start. This "hunting" at speed limits is a problem with all ATO systems unless it is carefully designed out and it rarely is. The Central Line has it too. On the Victoria Line, the crudeness of the control system and the inertia of the traction equipment makes it much less noticable. The trouble is that the speed bands are fixed as safety limits. You want the train to run as fast as possible within the limits, so the train accelerates until it hits the top speed, when it shuts off. It then remotors when the speed falls by a km/h or two. Repeat ad nauseam. Solution? Mmm - difficult, because you have to have software that will respond rapidly and safely under all conditions - normal running, following the train in front, signal stops etc. and eliminating the hunting requires design and testing effort. I think the answer might lie in the traction control on the train as well as the ATO line characteristic data. Trouble is, it would need the traction control engineers to talk to the signal engineers - even more difficult! Does this explain the jolting that was taking place when we were stopping and starting going into Canary Wharf this morning? It was very unusual for the Jubilee line! |
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Post by edwin on Jan 11, 2011 3:04:21 GMT
Went on the Jubilee today again from Kilburn to Bond Street, seemed slower than last time, especially when entering platforms.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 7:45:05 GMT
Is TBTC going to be installed on all lines now rather than the origianlly planned distance to go ATO?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2011 20:23:07 GMT
Only Northern is pretty well guarenteed to get it as far as I know. Picadilly maybe in a few years, but I don't think any others will.
Regarding the speed differences being experienced, I believe the system has very good regulation built in, so running the current timetable allows the trains to cruise at a slow pace to space themselves out if early / on time, but can go like a rocket if running late.
Until the timetable increases the need for more trains or speed I don't think we will see much difference on a typical journey.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 0:05:35 GMT
Is the whole of the Jubilee now ATO? I have noticed all the signals have been covered past Finchley Road, was this recent?
I have also noticed that they are slower and move into platforms at a much slower pace!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 1:15:11 GMT
Is the whole of the Jubilee now ATO? I have noticed all the signals have been covered past Finchley Road, was this recent? I have also noticed that they are slower and move into platforms at a much slower pace! Dollis Hill - Stratford has been ATO for nearly two weeks I think, the rest of the line (and the third platform at Stanmore) possibly will be ready around Easter time. See sw206's post for explanation as to why it is not necessarily as fast as you'd hope right now. However, you are absolutely right - speed into platforms was positively funereal on Sunday and Monday (don't know about yesterday) regardless of whether the train was on time or late. Possibly an experiment due to some trains missing stopping mark in platform but they will really have to sort that out. Also you may have noticed next station audio is now played twice - presumably an unintended glitch that might seem trivial but I'm sure is extremely annoying to many. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 1:19:36 GMT
Thanks for the info! I feel sorry for the drivers, no more driving!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 6:50:09 GMT
Thanks for the info! I feel sorry for the drivers, no more driving! Not even in TBTC manual mode? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 7:44:04 GMT
Perhaps, but it's not the same as full Manual mode!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 8:10:29 GMT
Perhaps, but it's not the same as full Manual mode! Just wait until all cars drive themselves. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 9:46:28 GMT
Also you may have noticed next station audio is now played twice - presumably an unintended glitch that might seem trivial but I'm sure is extremely annoying to many. Is there any information on how this announcement is being triggered? If it is triggered by signalling, then duplication could be because old signals are still in place. |
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Post by 21146 on Jan 12, 2011 10:20:47 GMT
Perhaps, but it's not the same as full Manual mode! Just wait until all cars drive themselves. I find it sad to see yet another job de-skilled and made more boring, with inevitable consequences in changes to staff conditions in the future. I guess if I'd have had to work on an ATO Line it would be the Central where at least the trains travel at a decent speed! I wonder if there will be an exodus of T/Ops from Jubilee Line in the medium term? (Notwithstanding the fact that cross-transfer moves are already difficult in the current economic climate and that many Jubilee drivers have elected to change lines long before TBTC was on the horizon.) I suppose with the present-day LU obession with SPADs that's one benefit of ATO working mind you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 14:25:21 GMT
sometimes, unfortunately, the ends justify the means. The purpose of ATO is to provide a more regular service than human drivers can, and consequently you can increase the frequency.
this is a one-way street I'm afraid. I find it very unlikely that any ATO line will ever be permanantly converted back to manual operation.
I suspect the interesting jobs of the future will be related to the production and improvement of these kind of systems. Perhaps some of the drivers would be good consultants for the ATO software engineers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 14:28:27 GMT
True... ATO will one day control all of the trains in the future and train drivers will no longer exist... However, I don't see this for at least a minimum of a 100 years on all of the national rail networks... In 50 years, the whole of the LU I would suspect will be ATO and i'll be an old man! ha The Central line really is brillaint when it's working properly, those 92's move like lightnin!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 14:56:43 GMT
True... ATO will one day control all of the trains in the future and train drivers will no longer exist... However, I don't see this for at least a minimum of a 100 years on all of the national rail networks... In 50 years, the whole of the LU I would suspect will be ATO and i'll be an old man! ha The Central line really is brillaint when it's working properly, those 92's move like lightnin! I would expect things to change much sooner than that. It is predicted that all cars on the road may be self-driving in 10 years time and if that's the case then I doubt trains will be far behind. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 16:07:54 GMT
If I was a betting man, I'd bet my house that not all cars will be self driving in 10 years, and I'd bet my car that they won't all be self-driving in 20.
Technological advances are usually hampered by political and social problems
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