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Post by Chris M on Aug 13, 2010 17:50:25 GMT
Are all trains and other types of motorised rolling stock running on manually-driven conventionally-signalled LU lines required to have an operational tripcock or is it just some sub-set (e.g. trains carrying passengers)?
If the tripcock of a train that is required to have a tripcock becomes defective in service (it's checked every trip AIUI), what is the procedure? If it's a passenger train I presume it will be detrained, but can it be worked back to a depot during passenger hours or does it need to be moved after traffic?
Some of this question was sort-of asked in the thread about today's incident on the Northern Line (but not answered before the thread was, understandably, removed), and the rest was inspired by that question, however this is intended to be a more general question. If it does break the rules, please remove it and accept my apologies.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 13, 2010 20:37:22 GMT
Are all trains and other types of motorised rolling stock running on manually-driven conventionally-signalled LU lines required to have an operational tripcock or is it just some sub-set (e.g. trains carrying passengers)? All trains must be trip cock fitted. If there's no trip cock fitted, such as a class 66 knocking about, it would only be permitted to run at a reduced speed and within an engineering possession, which would have additional "buffer zones". If the tripcock of a train that is required to have a tripcock becomes defective in service (it's checked every trip AIUI), what is the procedure? If it's a passenger train I presume it will be detrained, but can it be worked back to a depot during passenger hours or does it need to be moved after traffic? A passenger train would indeed be detrained and out of service, unless it is the first or last on a branch line. To be able to continue (in or out of service), a second person must be present in the cab and they have to be fully briefed to effectively act as a trip cock and stop the train using the emergency systems available in the cab.
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Post by 100andthirty on Aug 14, 2010 15:42:25 GMT
If the tripcock of a train that is required to have a tripcock becomes defective in service (it's checked every trip AIUI), what is the procedure? Trains are required to pass over a tripcock tester normally once a trip. However, all a tripcock tester does is to check that the trip arm is physically present and in gauge. Personally I think it's incoceivable that a trip arm could be damaged such that it won't operate a tester and the train not be tripped. For entry into tripcock areas, they are valuable for double checking that the tripcock system is cut in and lever reset. However, LU passenger trains trains are hard to move at any speed with the tripcock cut out.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 14, 2010 17:26:10 GMT
Slightly OT, on MerseyRail the tripcocks are tested prior to entry to the tunnel sections. Unfortunately when the loop is out of action and trains reverse at James St there is no way to check the tripcock before the train leaves in passenger service, so TPWS was rolled out PDQ!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 14, 2010 19:31:06 GMT
However, all a tripcock tester does is to check that the trip arm is physically present and in gauge. Personally I think it's incoceivable that a trip arm could be damaged such that it won't operate a tester and the train not be tripped. I'm not quite sure what you mean with your last sentence there. Are you saying that you can't conceive of a situation where all of the following are true * the tripcock arm is damaged * the tripcock tester does not detect anything wrong * the triocock system fails to trip a train when it passes a raised trainstop? i.e. if the tripcock is damaged it will either fail the tripcock test or still work as intended (damaged but not broken)?
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Post by Tomcakes on Aug 14, 2010 20:45:05 GMT
A passenger train would indeed be detrained and out of service, unless it is the first or last on a branch line. To be able to continue (in or out of service), a second person must be present in the cab and they have to be fully briefed to effectively act as a trip cock and stop the train using the emergency systems available in the cab. Need that be another driver, or can it just be (say) a suitably informed station assistant?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2010 22:50:49 GMT
A passenger train would indeed be detrained and out of service, unless it is the first or last on a branch line. To be able to continue (in or out of service), a second person must be present in the cab and they have to be fully briefed to effectively act as a trip cock and stop the train using the emergency systems available in the cab. Need that be another driver, or can it just be (say) a suitably informed station assistant? Operational staff, so even a controller or signalman travelling home. (same with a defective deadmans)
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 14, 2010 23:27:39 GMT
I acted as a second person on the Northern Line a few years ago when they had issues relating to the reliability of tripcocks - and I was employed by Metronet at the time!
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 15, 2010 12:44:45 GMT
However, all a tripcock tester does is to check that the trip arm is physically present and in gauge. Personally I think it's incoceivable that a trip arm could be damaged such that it won't operate a tester and the train not be tripped. I'm not quite sure what you mean with your last sentence there. Are you saying that you can't conceive of a situation where all of the following are true * the tripcock arm is damaged * the tripcock tester does not detect anything wrong * the triocock system fails to trip a train when it passes a raised trainstop? i.e. if the tripcock is damaged it will either fail the tripcock test or still work as intended (damaged but not broken)? Basically the tripcock tester checks that the tripcock arm is in gauge in two dimensions such that it will be struck by a raised trainstop head. Even an 'in gauge' tripcock arm can be close enough to the tolerances for a train to be tripped in some circumstances. There are several variables to be considered when keeping tripcock arms in gauge. Rail wear affects the trip 'height' dimension as does re-railing so trainstops are gauged regularly and height adjusted to suit rail wear as required, when new track is laid the adjacent trainstops are reinstalled and 'put to gauge'. Sleepers and fixings also wear and it is possible for trainstops to move away from or closer to the running rail with wear and vibration but again such movement is picked up on regular maintenance checks and corrected as a matter of priority. Of course tripcock testers themselves are also liable to go out of gauge for the same reason as trainstops due to rail wear or replacement but the tolerances are smaller and so it is more likely for an 'in gauge' tripcock to fail the tripcock test if the tripcock tester has moved relative to its gauge lines. At the end of the day and relative to the running rail height not all trainstop heads will be at the same height above the crown of the running rail but they should all be within the allowed tolerance i.e. within gauge. It would be very unlikely for a trainstop head to move so far away from the running rail as to be unable to operate a tripcock in normal operation and with fair wear and tear, neverthelss the trainstop head is made wide enough to take account of the possibility. Of course it is possible for trainstop heads to be decapitated by defective trains, loose pickup shoes being the usual culprit, but this automatically maintains signals in rear at danger by mechanical and electrical means inherent in the failsafe safety signalling devices and circuitry.
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Post by 100andthirty on Aug 15, 2010 15:56:54 GMT
However, all a tripcock tester does is to check that the trip arm is physically present and in gauge. Personally I think it's incoceivable that a trip arm could be damaged such that it won't operate a tester and the train not be tripped. I'm not quite sure what you mean with your last sentence there. Are you saying that you can't conceive of a situation where all of the following are true * the tripcock arm is damaged * the tripcock tester does not detect anything wrong * the triocock system fails to trip a train when it passes a raised trainstop? i.e. if the tripcock is damaged it will either fail the tripcock test or still work as intended (damaged but not broken)? Apart from my inability to type "inconceivable", what i meant , is that if something were to happen to damage a tripcock so badly that it would fail to operate a tripcock tester, the damage event would trip the train. In all my experience, the things that cause trains to fail the tripcock are of the sort mentioned by railtechnician, and the tripcock would still operate the tripcock tester.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2010 16:12:53 GMT
What is the status of the tripcock at the back of the train (for when it goes the other way): is it 'switched off', as it were, so that 'wrong direction' signals are ignored, or are things arranged so that their trip arms are lowered? If the former, then damage without tripping is possible. Is any sort of visual check of the trip cock part of the driver's routine on taking over a cab?
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Post by 21146 on Aug 15, 2010 16:41:15 GMT
The trainstops of "wrong-direction"-facing signals are wired so as to lower in these circumstances. At some places this can be observed (e.g. on the WB station starter in Plaistow EB platform 2).
IIRC the old "four walks" train preparation in depot included visually checking the leading tripcock was in place.
There was a time when the tripcocks of "shutdown" end cabs on some stock (e.g. C69) were inoperative but this caused problems if the train had to be propelled from the rear as it required two staff in the leading cab.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 15, 2010 19:01:48 GMT
To make it a bit clearer, trip cocks at both ends of a train are always cut in [and are therefore always operative). Where cabs are in the middle, the trip cocks will be cut out. As 21146 says, relevant train stops lower as required ensuring trains are not back tripped.
Back tripping is however possible for a number of reasons and when it happens different stocks act in different ways - some will cause no bother until a driver changes ends at a terminus (the back thus now becoming the front), others will knock out the train line air giving a burst (essentially just like being front tripped). In the case of the latter, it has to be dealt with there and then.
As for depot checks when preparing a train for service, I don't believe there is a requirement to check the trip cock arm is there (if there is I've not been prepping properly for the last 5 years) - if it was missing surely you ought to have a burst!! - but it is most certainly part of the train prep to ensure the trip cock is cut in.
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Post by 21146 on Aug 15, 2010 19:57:06 GMT
The "four walks" train prep on LT, which included the need to test middle cabs, went out on the District Line even before the D Stock were introduced, so it's difficult to remember clearly now!
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Post by t697 on Aug 16, 2010 18:00:27 GMT
As for depot checks when preparing a train for service, I don't believe there is a requirement to check the trip cock arm is there (if there is I've not been prepping properly for the last 5 years) - if it was missing surely you ought to have a burst!! - but it is most certainly part of the train prep to ensure the trip cock is cut in. It is part of the Fleet Maintenance daily Prep to actually operate the tripcock and confirm it applies the brake, so the presence of the lever is of course then checked. The Train Operator's Prep is as you said.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 16, 2010 18:42:40 GMT
It is part of the Fleet Maintenance daily Prep to actually operate the tripcock and confirm it applies the brake, so the presence of the lever is of course then checked. The Train Operator's Prep is as you said. Indeed - I had typed my reply #12 whilst feeling rather fatigued having done a night duty Saturday night into Sunday (I don't sleep on nights unlike others), then stayed up all day as I'm on earlies from today (Monday); so I'd been awake for 24 hours and was just about ready for bed ;D What I should have said was, as you say, the trip arm is physically checked by the train maintainers as part of their prep and if the train was then offered service with it missing, they would then be held accountable for offering a defective train. On stocks with train line air, such as A's, C's and 72ts, in theory with no trip arm present you should have a train line air burst. On stocks such as D's & 73ts, you should in theory have a front trip indication as the pressure switch should drop out. I say in theory as it depends on how much of the trip arm mechanism is missing. Of course trip cock testers are placed out on lines such that every train should have it's trip arm tested on every single trip at least once. I'm surprised nobody has asked why we don't have them on depot & siding exits so that trains are caught before they enter service - well I suppose the answer is that in the first instance that'd a be a lot of testers to install and maintain and it'd be quite a complicated set up in that you'd need to test both front & rear on exit (remember they're on opposite sides at the front & rear so that they're always on the right hand side in the direction of travel), but of course there'd be no need to test on entry back to the depot/siding. Also, some trains are stabled in platforms overnight - an even greater headache! The Chesham shuttle does have both front & rear tested at the same time in Chalfont bay (I believe our very own Tom was involved in that one and could add more info on it), but that's really a one off.
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Post by Tom on Aug 16, 2010 21:14:19 GMT
Not much to add really - the positioning is different but that's about all that the Train Op should see that differs from normal.
At Stonebridge Park, however, tripcocks are tested as trains leave the depot. However the tester is a Network Rail one and where it alarms to if a train fails the test, I'm not sure...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 11:23:31 GMT
As an aside, Railway Gazette is reporting that the Berlin S-Bahn is going to replace mechanical trainstops with a balise system, AIUI independently of any resignalling - presumably a relatievly straightforward electronic system on the track that gives a proceed or stop indication to a passing train. Would it be worth LU considering this to reduce maintenace and improve reliability on those lines where tripcocks will still be in use once the current resignalling plans are complete?
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 17, 2010 16:38:48 GMT
To make it a bit clearer, trip cocks at both ends of a train are always cut in [and are therefore always operative). Where cabs are in the middle, the trip cocks will be cut out. As 21146 says, relevant train stops lower as required ensuring trains are not back tripped. Back tripping is however possible for a number of reasons and when it happens different stocks act in different ways - some will cause no bother until a driver changes ends at a terminus (the back thus now becoming the front), others will knock out the train line air giving a burst (essentially just like being front tripped). In the case of the latter, it has to be dealt with there and then. As for depot checks when preparing a train for service, I don't believe there is a requirement to check the trip cock arm is there (if there is I've not been prepping properly for the last 5 years) - if it was missing surely you ought to have a burst!! - but it is most certainly part of the train prep to ensure the trip cock is cut in. I don't know how aware or not drivers are made of slow to operate trainstops but there are a few of those about where trains enter service such as WR9 at Northfields and WY3 at Heathrow for instance where accelerating sharply away as the signal clears is liable to trip the train. Basically the lowering time of the trainstop is increased by inserting a length of 1.5" air main GI pipe 'in series' with the heston hose between the GE valve and the trainstop, the longer the length of air main the greater the delay as the pipe has a greater cross sectional area and serves to reduce the instantaneous air pressure which then takes longer to build up and overcome the trainstop return spring. Back tripping sometimes happens at wrong road trainstops, my thinking is that perhaps this is due to 'swing' as they are normally associated with crossovers and as such a curve is involved and the track gauge although within tolerance is possibly likely to be a fraction wider. Also these trainstops mounted at blockjoints are more liable to move under vibration especially if the trackbed isn't solid. I have seen such trainstops jumping up and down when investigating back trip incidents. Of course one train may be backtripped and 10 go by without let or hindrance and to my mind that is all about the tight tolerances involved, safety first and always!
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 17, 2010 16:49:41 GMT
As an aside, Railway Gazette is reporting that the Berlin S-Bahn is going to replace mechanical trainstops with a balise system, AIUI independently of any resignalling - presumably a relatievly straightforward electronic system on the track that gives a proceed or stop indication to a passing train. Would it be worth LU considering this to reduce maintenace and improve reliability on those lines where tripcocks will still be in use once the current resignalling plans are complete? IIRC that is exactly what the Glasgow SubwaY did at their last (?? but one) resignalling.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 17, 2010 19:29:45 GMT
As an aside, Railway Gazette is reporting that the Berlin S-Bahn is going to replace mechanical trainstops with a balise system, AIUI independently of any resignalling - presumably a relatievly straightforward electronic system on the track that gives a proceed or stop indication to a passing train. Would it be worth LU considering this to reduce maintenace and improve reliability on those lines where tripcocks will still be in use once the current resignalling plans are complete? Well.... When the re-signalling is complete we'll be running under ATP with ATO, so the train stops will be history anyway!! I don't know how aware or not drivers are made of slow to operate trainstops but there are a few of those about where trains enter service such as WR9 at Northfields and WY3 at Heathrow for instance where accelerating sharply away as the signal clears is liable to trip the train. Basically the lowering time of the trainstop is increased by inserting a length of 1.5" air main GI pipe 'in series' with the heston hose between the GE valve and the trainstop, the longer the length of air main the greater the delay as the pipe has a greater cross sectional area and serves to reduce the instantaneous air pressure which then takes longer to build up and overcome the trainstop return spring. Drivers are very aware of slow train stops Places like Whitechapel are very much part of the road training. Back tripping sometimes happens at wrong road trainstops, my thinking is that perhaps this is due to 'swing' as they are normally associated with crossovers and as such a curve is involved and the track gauge although within tolerance is possibly likely to be a fraction wider. Take Parsons Green on the District for example - train stops all over the place - back tripping is very easy there as when a release is taken on any signal in the area, they all go back. I don't imagine "swing" has anything to do with it at all as such train stops would normally lower as the train passes over them - it's only in the release situation that it may raise under a train and be an issue. Also these trainstops mounted at blockjoints are more liable to move under vibration especially if the trackbed isn't solid. I have seen such trainstops jumping up and down when investigating back trip incidents. Of course one train may be backtripped and 10 go by without let or hindrance and to my mind that is all about the tight tolerances involved, safety first and always! First I've heard of such an issue!! What has been an issue of late is pipe connections being loosened by persons unknown such that the trip arm doesn't always go fully down. All you then need is a train with an arm slightly lower than the rest to catch it and Bob's yer uncle. I had that a few months ago - got tripped but I swore the signal was Green....turned out the air pipe had been loosened off and my train had a lower-than-the-rest arm which caught it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 19:45:42 GMT
As an aside, Railway Gazette is reporting that the Berlin S-Bahn is going to replace mechanical trainstops with a balise system, AIUI independently of any resignalling - presumably a relatievly straightforward electronic system on the track that gives a proceed or stop indication to a passing train. Would it be worth LU considering this to reduce maintenace and improve reliability on those lines where tripcocks will still be in use once the current resignalling plans are complete? Well.... When the re-signalling is complete we'll be running under ATP with ATO, so the train stops will be history anyway!! I meant the lines that are *not* being resignalled in the immediate future and that would still have tripcocks for a while - thinking again though, that would only be the Bakerloo and Piccadilly, and I guess those will be resignalled in the next 10 to 15 years anyway.
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