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Post by deadmans on Mar 8, 2010 20:36:02 GMT
Put back to July.?!  |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 8, 2010 22:26:38 GMT
Is that official?
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Post by citysig on Mar 9, 2010 8:14:27 GMT
Given that some of the (non service) testing for the whole line was scheduled for May/June (and has been for a long time) this seems about right. You can't just enter service without testing everything first. But as for it being officially "put back" I don't think this is quite as black and white as it sounds.
S Stock is reality. Change must happen. Stop knocking the project at any hint of perceived delay.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 9, 2010 11:07:48 GMT
I'm sure prjb will tidy this up when he sees it, but I know there are several 'official' dates for the various stages, and also, from what he says, a fair bit of redundancy/contingency time built into the programme. But he may not see it for a while if he's still out nearly every night - - testing!! |
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Post by plasmid on Mar 9, 2010 13:17:51 GMT
this is most excellent news. i've only ever been on an A stock once and it scared the poo out of me when i heard the awful motor whine spin up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 14:24:43 GMT
Put back to July.?! When was it supposed to be? Sorry, I've not been following this as closely as I should have been. Will the A stock survive until July? |
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Post by plasmid on Mar 9, 2010 15:25:27 GMT
The A stock will have to survive for another 2 years I would have thought, they aren't going to be replaced overnight.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 9, 2010 17:55:08 GMT
Thankfully!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 19:58:20 GMT
i've only ever been on an A stock once and it scared the poo out of me when i heard the awful motor whine spin up. You must mean the MA's. In all the years I drove A60's I can't say I heard the motors whine to such an extent. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Mar 9, 2010 21:58:48 GMT
I'm sure prjb will tidy this up when he sees it, but I know there are several 'official' dates for the various stages, and also, from what he says, a fair bit of redundancy/contingency time built into the programme. But he may not see it for a while if he's still out nearly every night - - testing!! Sorry for not being around so much Guys, Phil is quite right though - night shift has featured heavily just recently!!  Officially the Upgrade has been stating that the first in 'S' into service will be "Summer 2010", there has been no public annoucement with an actual date. We are currently on track for Summer 2010 but suspect that, without revealing the actual details, we will be a little behind our planned entry date. The adverse weather was not kind to us and coupled with some hiccups in testing (mentioned elsewhere on the forum) we are playing catch up a bit. We do have some float in the program though so things are not as bad as you may think. You will be pleased to know that the 'A' Stock will be around for a while yet but the phased withdrawal will be starting shortly. Fortunately though, 'C' Stock will still be around for an awful lot longer - so that's ok then!!  I will try and update you all on the testing in the New Rolling Stock area in due course. Thanks for sticking with me as I wander aimlessly around like a Zombie during the day!!  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 23:06:51 GMT
The A stock will have to survive for another 2 years I would have thought, they aren't going to be replaced overnight. I must confess to being a tad sarcastic in my last post. I really for the life of me can't understand why some seem to relish the prospect of any new stock being slightly behind (if indeed they actually are) in introduction considering it's obvious that the older A stock is still capable of running a service in the meantime. It doesn't matter does it? You'll still catch your train, whatever shape it is, and arrive at your destination. I'd rather the people who know about these things take all the time they need to get things right for the punters. As long as the service remains intact there's no problem. Prjb, as much as I admire your contribution to this exceptional project, can I offer some words of advice for future marketing of new stock introduction to avoid this situation? "The new trains will be in service when we (the designers, builders and testers) are good and ready and satisfied that the new stock will give their best for the paying public. Those not connected with the project really have no reason to worry as there will be no disruption in the meantime so enjoy the last of the old trains while you can and have a nice day." A little more positive support for such a massive undertaking would be in order I think. |
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Post by 100andthirty on Mar 10, 2010 6:07:57 GMT
There's a tradition around UK projects of self depreciatiing humour. PRJB has lots of it! However he's consistently been a towering advocate for this project on this forum (and in the project team!), as can be seen from all his posts.
That said, we all have our strange pecadillos, and PRJB's love of the horrible C stock is one such!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2010 17:34:02 GMT
I handled the S stock through my area yesterday and I must say it looks and sounds good! I liked the cool xenon headlights and when it passed Harrow the sound of the motors had a nice hum and none of the clattering of the A stock although it did pass the platform at low speed so its hard to gauge what it sounds like at full whack, i'll probably be shot down in flames now!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2010 17:46:47 GMT
i'll probably be shot down in flames now! Bang! |
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 10, 2010 17:50:33 GMT
;D ;D ;D
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Post by deadmans on Mar 10, 2010 18:46:33 GMT
Put back to July.?!  One in the eye for the S Stock clique. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 10, 2010 19:50:32 GMT
So what is your point deadmans?
You seem to be the only person that's remotely bothered, and readily standing by to knock those working on the S stock project at every given opportunity.
It's almost as though you are sticking your foot out in the hope that some poor unsuspecting soul will trip over it just so you can smugly say they should have been looking where they were going and that it was their own fault.
There are many positives to the S stock project you know!
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 10, 2010 20:35:25 GMT
Even I've been well behaved!
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Post by citysig on Mar 10, 2010 22:47:20 GMT
It's almost as though you are sticking your foot out in the hope that some poor unsuspecting soul will trip over it just so you can smugly say they should have been looking where they were going and that it was their own fault. Don't worry Colin. Deadmans comes across in his posts as someone who works within the realms of Neasden depot. I can assure you, from where I sit, if someone did stick a foot out, it would be those in the depot who would trip over it ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2010 2:22:54 GMT
i'll probably be shot down in flames now! Bang! Hopefully we won't have any unpleasent issues when the fleet rolls out or I bet you won't let me hear the end of it! |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Mar 11, 2010 11:47:19 GMT
I presume that in his other life Deadman's is a test pilot. They are the only people prepared to risk their lives on a not-fully-tested piece of transport, and continue to do so even when unforseeable problems delay the programme. As for me, I'd prefer to wait till all these unpredictable issues are sorted out rather than ride on a train new into service on time but which interferes with the existing signalling - or the MAs fall off - or ########*!
*Insert whatever unforseeable problem as appropriate - if you can predict the unforseeable!
Remember the class 323s? Rushed into service, and after 3 or 4 weeks or so the main transformers started falling off with potentially fatal consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2010 11:54:04 GMT
I'm an A60 fan, having driven them, but to be fair I don't think they will be phased out quickly with the S stock rushed in. They have lost a lot of testing time with the bad weather and various other happenings, but i believe, and hope, they will be as thoroughly tested as we have been told they would be. Better to have all the problems ironed out while testing, rather than a glut of them appear at once on the railway and all sit down with various niggly problems that a few extra weeks testing would have sorted out.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2010 11:54:52 GMT
Hopefully we won't have any unpleasent issues when the fleet rolls out or I bet you won't let me hear the end of it! You'll be the first person I call! |
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Post by singaporesam on Mar 11, 2010 13:03:31 GMT
Trains are routinely delivered in under 26 months all over Asia, the first Bombardier train for Delhi was Antonoved in in 18 months .
The UK rail industry needs to wake up smell the coffee and start delivering trains of a much better quality and reliability much more quickly . The "standard" 39 months from contract award is utterly nonsensical , especially when it is often further elongated by extensive and frequently unnecessary site testing.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 11, 2010 14:10:35 GMT
The S stock are the first batch of new sub-surface stock trains since the late 1970s - are there regularly 30+ year gaps in train orders in Asia?
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Post by citysig on Mar 11, 2010 14:16:49 GMT
The "standard" 39 months from contract award is utterly nonsensical , especially when it is often further elongated by extensive and frequently unnecessary site testing. You are referred to the replies by both Phil and lc66, which also reflect my own views. Better to take a little longer than rush in and look stupid. Besides, as I mentioned in my reply earlier, the timetabling plans I have seen still pretty much reflect what was expected - albeit the odd date here and there which has slipped slightly. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 11, 2010 14:49:34 GMT
The S stock are the first batch of new sub-surface stock trains since the late 1970s - are there regularly 30+ year gaps in train orders in Asia? Bombardier have not been sitting on their hands these last 30 years though. Actually, is there any reason (give or take a negative pickup) why a common design couldn't have been adopted for both the subsurface lines and the Overground? |
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Post by Colin on Mar 11, 2010 15:06:53 GMT
There are many differences, some examples are: - NR trains have vigilance devices which have to be operated in response to various sounds in the cab - LU trains do not have this.
- LU trains have a deadman feature which means the Combined Traction Brake Controller must be held at all times to prove a train operator is alive in the cab - NR trains do not have this.
- LU trains have a superior braking system as they stop more frequently and in vastly shorter distances - NR trains are the opposite.
- LU trains have no requirement to operate above 60mph - NR trains do.
- Defect handling is dealt with in a completely different way on both NR & LU.
- the overall operating environment is very different between LU & NR.
EDIT: look at it this way: the S stock is part of the Electrostar family - does it actually look like a class 357, 375, 376, 377 or 378? In a nutshell, there's yer answer!! |
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Post by citysig on Mar 11, 2010 21:03:21 GMT
As prjb has said in the past (not sure if he's said it on here or to me) the S-stock "started off" as an "off-the-shelf" product - a few more of those in our history could have meant a much smoother / cheaper / more efficient service years ago.
Once it was "taken off the shelf" the project team basically said to Bombardier (let's call them the shopkeeper) can we have it with this, this and some of that, with a few tweaks here and there to suit our needs.
The shopkeeper has basically found, maybe under his counter, a better model than a mere bog-standard Electrostar. Bits are very similar. Other bits are not.
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Post by andypurk on Mar 11, 2010 22:17:55 GMT
Another consideration is that mainline stock wouldn't fit on much of the sub-surface railway, mainly because the coaches would be too long, but wouldn't use the full width available. Once you cut 3-4 metres out of a 378 vehicle, you would have to start rearranging equipment etc. and the costs rise. When you add new signalling systems as well you can easily see why things take longer.
European stock would need even more modification to fit.
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