Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Oct 9, 2007 17:09:09 GMT
There are no cross overs at Blackfriars - nor is it a reversing point Thank goodness for that..I don't want to be too much of an anachronism!  On SWT New Milton is not a reversing point or has any #-over anywhere near it (Brockenhurst and Bournemouth being the nearest) and neither does Southampton Airport Parkway. However, especially in the case of the former, trains run to and from these stations wrong-line from Brockie or Eastleigh and back under SLW [engineering works usually], and thus have these destinations able to be quoted. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2007 20:13:56 GMT
The refurb D stock is capable of showing any station as a terminating point regardless of whether it's really possible or not, and that's half the problem with it's system............. I think it's right that all stations can be shown as a destination. Just because a station is not a reversing point doesn't mean the train isn't going to detrain there. A couple of actual examples: Train told to detrain at Westminster then run empty to Embankment to pick up trainload of football fans with police escort, then run non-stop to Upton Park. So Westminster would be the destination. Due to a security alert, Dagenham East station was closed and trains reversing there had to run empty from Heathway, so Heathway would be the destination. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2007 22:58:49 GMT
It doesn't help that when you scroll it nearly always skips the destination you need so you end up with Blackfriars if you don't notice. It does it 90% of the time with the intermediate reversing points. It's completely annoying. Keeps us on our toes I suppose.  The thing is completely un-user friendly, the buttons aren't responsive nor do they illuminate, the software hangs constantly. I suppose you get what you pay for. How much did Bombardier pay us to take it off their hands again?!!! ;D ;D +1 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2007 23:06:23 GMT
Due to a security alert, Dagenham East station was closed and trains reversing there had to run empty from Heathway, so Heathway would be the destination. I was about to quote that example ! At least one train op did have the foresight to put up Dagenham Heathway too ! On an occassion recently, I was a booked Richmond, but the branch was closed with a failed Silverlink. In the absence of any info on when it would re-open and thus where I would go, I showed "Turnham Green" and thence Ealing Broadway when it became clear that would be my destination. It is a lot less griefy to show where you know you will serve and then, as a bonus, be extended somewhere, than to show an end of line terminus and then upset people by diverting or curtailing, assuming they hear (because of IPODs etc) any subsequent announcemnets at all ! |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 10, 2007 0:13:38 GMT
I accept your well argued points - mind you, if anyone saw me heading east this evening you will have seen that the CIS (customer information system) packed up completely on the leading unit......so nothing was shown at all  Trouble with that was the other was good - and I set it up whilst entering Wimbledon; now I was at the dud end, I had no control over it and didn't even know if it was working properly or not (not too sure if it relied solely on the leading end's GPS/wheel counter). I called out the fitter, who duly met me at Earls Court, confirmed the defect and simply said "it's still serviceable" - yeah, cheers pal. So off we trot with me having to do manual PA's every now & then. Once at Upminster I found out the answer regarding whether or not the rear unit relied on the front for positioning..............the internal displays where scrolling "The next station is Sloane Square" ;D ;D ;D ;D Another thing whilst I think of it, wasn't the 'not in service' button separate so that it would still work if the CIS failed? On this occasion it wouldn't override a thing (I was going into the depot at Upminster). (Note to Solidbond, I did try the gassing switch relay MCB but it didn't help ) |
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 10, 2007 1:37:56 GMT
re sophisticated CDSE - I'd have thought that a simple system of a projecting beam beneath the door towards the platform would work. Have a strip of material at the same approximate height on the platform edge that reflects the beam back to the train. If the train detects the beam being reflected back within a safe distance, that door opens. If it doesn't the door remains closed. If parts of platforms are disused, then just don't stick the reflective material on that bit of the platform. CSDE is a wonderful system but it is approaching the end of its designed life now on most lines. It was built to last 24/7/365/20 continuously. In 1991/2 I was the installation supervisor for the first CSDE project packages commencing at Hammersmith C&H and working eastwards as far as Barking. I believe the JLE uses the same Redifon equipment to do track to train CCTV as well as CSDE. I would say of all the non-safety equipment that I installed and maintained it was the most reliable. Brian |
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Post by trainopd78 on Oct 10, 2007 10:55:38 GMT
CDSE IMHO is a fabulous bit of kit. Simple, reliable and definitely fit for purpose even if it is getting on in years. I just don't like the idea of using GPS to ascertain the position of a train to release the doors. Its too unreliable IMHO. I'm just glad LUL aren't going on that route, not that they could of course. |
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 10, 2007 12:38:11 GMT
CDSE IMHO is a fabulous bit of kit. Simple, reliable and definitely fit for purpose even if it is getting on in years. I just don't like the idea of using GPS to ascertain the position of a train to release the doors. Its too unreliable IMHO. I'm just glad LUL aren't going on that route, not that they could of course. I think as far as LUL goes GPS is a non-starter, there are far better ways of determining the position of a train especially when out of sight of a satellite e.g. the track circuit, the delta track circuit, position detectors (axle counters) and various tx-rx systems like CSDE, even the train radio will give a position to within two base stations and also positively identify the driving cab although I can't recall that particular facility (known as TQ and not to be confused with a TQ proving circuit) ever being used except by radio linemen. Actually I'm not sure if that TQ facility exists under the Connect radio system, I ceased working with train radio quite a few years ago now just around the time that the Central line Bosch system was installed. Brian |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 10, 2007 17:12:54 GMT
A possible location system could be as simple as having a series of fixed boxes on the lineside/tunnel wall each with a unique identifier broadcasting to the trains. Train software could then know where it is when it passes each box, with things like the DVA triggered by simply telling it to play message X when passing box Y. If this is combined with a wheel rotation counter, the train could know exactly where it is all the time (e.g. play message Z and box A plus 45 wheel turns). This could also be used to cover for defective boxes if the train just keeps counting the wheel turns until it receives a signal from another box, when it reset the count to 0 and starts again. | Instruction | At box | plus wheel turns | play message | | 1 | A | 0 | 1 | | 2 | A | 45 | 2 | | 3 | A | 345 | 3 | | 4 | A | 530 | 4 | | 5 | B | 100 | 3 | | 6 | B | 330 | 4 | | 7 | C | 130 | 4 |
If the boxes ABC are 200 metres apart, and the software is set to skip to the first instruction for the box it receives a signal from, instructions 3, 4 and 6 would only be processed if one or more boxes wasn't working. If Box A is not working then you wouldn't get announcements until after Box B, but I anticipate the boxes would be very simple technology so rarely break and be quick and simple to fix. The broadcast would have to use a narrow beam for this to work properly, but I don't imagine that would be a problem. To cope with bidirectional lines, perhaps you'd need one box on each side of the line and only have a receiver on the left hand side of the train (and a signal that did not pass through trains). Maybe an infra red beam would work. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 16:15:17 GMT
The software was designed by Faiveley, a french company apparently, and installed under licence by Bombardier!!! Says it all really! Ahhhh this'll be the same Faiveley that were responsible for the door blowing open on a moving Meridian 222 whilst the TMS indicated that the train was all peachy.... |
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 17, 2007 20:59:34 GMT
A possible location system could be as simple as having a series of fixed boxes on the lineside/tunnel wall each with a unique identifier broadcasting to the trains. Train software could then know where it is when it passes each box, with things like the DVA triggered by simply telling it to play message X when passing box Y. If this is combined with a wheel rotation counter, the train could know exactly where it is all the time (e.g. play message Z and box A plus 45 wheel turns). This could also be used to cover for defective boxes if the train just keeps counting the wheel turns until it receives a signal from another box, when it reset the count to 0 and starts again. | Instruction | At box | plus wheel turns | play message | | 1 | A | 0 | 1 | | 2 | A | 45 | 2 | | 3 | A | 345 | 3 | | 4 | A | 530 | 4 | | 5 | B | 100 | 3 | | 6 | B | 330 | 4 | | 7 | C | 130 | 4 |
If the boxes ABC are 200 metres apart, and the software is set to skip to the first instruction for the box it receives a signal from, instructions 3, 4 and 6 would only be processed if one or more boxes wasn't working. If Box A is not working then you wouldn't get announcements until after Box B, but I anticipate the boxes would be very simple technology so rarely break and be quick and simple to fix. The broadcast would have to use a narrow beam for this to work properly, but I don't imagine that would be a problem. To cope with bidirectional lines, perhaps you'd need one box on each side of the line and only have a receiver on the left hand side of the train (and a signal that did not pass through trains). Maybe an infra red beam would work. Why reinvent the wheel? A train radio channel change beacon transmits 365/24/7 and caters for up to eight channels. I'm not sure if these are still in service to switch the radio channels as trains pass from one control room to another or whether they have been replaced by another system under the connect project. Brian |
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Post by c5 on Oct 17, 2007 21:01:46 GMT
Why reinvent the wheel? A train radio channel change beacon transmits 365/24/7 and caters for up to eight channels. I'm not sure if these are still in service to switch the radio channels as trains pass from one control room to another or whether they have been replaced by another system under the connect project. Brian The connect uses GPS type beacons and is far too complicated. Hence it doesnt work properly! It is better than when it was first installed though! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2007 10:32:51 GMT
Here's one of a different kind. The TFL website was reporting just now that a signal failure at Plaistow was causing minor delays on the Circle Line, but no problems on the District  |
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Post by c5 on Oct 19, 2007 18:25:23 GMT
Here's one of a different kind. The TFL website was reporting just now that a signal failure at Plaistow was causing minor delays on the Circle Line, but no problems on the District Possibly because some Train Operators have had short meal reliefs from those getting off H&C workings? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 2:55:44 GMT
Here's one of a different kind. The TFL website was reporting just now that a signal failure at Plaistow was causing minor delays on the Circle Line, but no problems on the District ??? *Earlier* in the morning there were: minor delays on H&C, changed to a service suspension from (I think) Barking to Whitechapel, changed to severe delays, then back down to minor. Circle went minor delays, severe delays, minor delays. District went minor delays, severe delays, minor delays. I assume the H&C suspension was to let the District recover, which is why it, and the H&C, were cleared before the Circle was - as far as I remember only the Circle still had the delays when I left work at noon. (The actual incident happened before 6am, I believe - hence why when you checked at approximately 11am, all except the Circle was cleared off.) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2007 22:26:53 GMT
Many thanks. I should've figured something of the sort out for myself, but since I almost never go east of the City I forget that "C" stock does |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2007 8:35:43 GMT
Yeah, the first time I saw something similar - it was delays on the Circle Line due to a signal failure somewhere further up the Metropolitan - I thought "Erm... WTF?". But then I sat down and thought about it and realised that it wasn't directly due to the signal failure, it was due to the Metropolitan blocking back because of the signal failure, thereby blocking the Circle. Then things made sense!
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The thing is completely un-user friendly, the buttons aren't responsive nor do they illuminate, the software hangs constantly. I suppose you get what you pay for. How much did Bombardier pay us to take it off their hands again?!!! ;D ;D
