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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2007 11:03:41 GMT
Problems with the points at Whitechapel brought a change to yesterdays (Saturday) engineering timetables
During the problems the planned Upminster - Whitechapel service was projected to Aldgate East, after several attempts to rectify the problem it was announced all Whitechapel reversing trains would all be projected to Aldgate East until close of traffic, this occured from mid afternoon.
I never saw any H&C Whitechapel reversers either, so I presume they were being reversed at Aldgate or Moorgate to reduce pressure on Aldgate East. (Barking trips and Plaistow curtailments continued to run through).
One minor irritation was the Barking signaller (I presume) continued to set up trains with a Whitechapel display so the dot matrix, where working, showed "Whitechapel only", this was tollerable but had the effect (for some reason) of causing a "Hammersmith via Kings Cross" display at Aldgate East which caused a lot of extra work for all staff there ! The late turn signaller at Barking properly described the trains as Aldgate East which displays "Aldgate East only" on the dot matrix, but more importantly leaves the light box at Aldgate East blank !
The reverse at Aldgate East is from wrong road starter at Aldgate East westbound platform, crossing over the points east of the station, before St Mary's is reached, this move is made in passenger service. (two such timetabled moves occur of a normal Sunday morning).
Not sure if the issue was sorted overnight, hence what is occuring today. However it made for some nice variety yesterday ;D
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Post by Harsig on Jun 24, 2007 11:47:41 GMT
I never saw any H&C Whitechapel reversers either, so I presume they were being reversed at Aldgate or Moorgate to reduce pressure on Aldgate East. (Barking trips and Plaistow curtailments continued to run through). They were alternately reversed at Moorgate and Aldgate Platform 1. In fact the reason they appeared as Hammersmith via Kings Cross at Aldgate East was the fact that the timetable loaded into the computer had no Aldgate East Reversers in it apart from at the very end of the traffic day. This therefore meant that the computer was unable to match the received Train Descripton with any train in the timetable (it only looks an hour or so ahead) and so it was forced to assume that any train coming from Whitechapel was the next timetabled train which would always be 'Hammersmith via Kings Cross. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2007 12:46:31 GMT
Ahh, I assumed the destinations were entered manually by the signaller. I have watched them twist a dial and then push a central button which activated the TD. I didn't realise the indicators were clever enough to look for a matching train in the TT .... come to think of it, how then does it cope with, say a Parsons Green, which may often appear but not be timetabled !! Still from about 2100 when the Barking signaller started putting up "Aldgate East" TD's the light box at Aldgate East remained blank. The scheduled reversers there weren't due till gone midnight  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2007 14:01:58 GMT
whitechapel they dont twist a dial its all push buttons so in the case of a aldgate east they would select either plat 3 or 4 first then push the AE button this is the same for barking cabin aswell from my understanding when we have had t/d problems in the past at whitechapel if a train got sent with a aldgate east t/d the pc at baker st would automatically set the route up for reversing back to whitechapel but after what HarSig has just mentioned this seems not to be the case
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 24, 2007 18:32:15 GMT
Was on a Barking last night that got turned at Whitechapel.
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Post by Harsig on Jun 24, 2007 21:19:19 GMT
Still from about 2100 when the Barking signaller started putting up "Aldgate East" TD's the light box at Aldgate East remained blank. The scheduled reversers there weren't due till gone midnight I can assure you, since I was in charge of the signalling at Aldgate East from 21:30, that all trains were allocating themselves as Hammersmiths until approximately 23:30. However once each District was positively identified as such by looking at the headwall CCTV it was renumbered onto an eastbound trip which would cause the TD light box to go blank. Sometimes this could be done before the train is fully berthed in the platform, other times it may have been there a minute or two if others matters in the SCC control area were taking precedence. It sounds like each time you vistied Aldgate East later in the evening, you benefitted from a prompt renumbering. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2007 23:51:32 GMT
I can assure you, since I was in charge of the signalling at Aldgate East from 21:30, ..........It sounds like each time you vistied Aldgate East later in the evening, you benefitted from a prompt renumbering. I might say I benefited from some most sensible and efficient signalling (given the positions of surrounding trains) resulting in my train being the only one to be running on time, so well done to you and your counterpart ;D |
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Post by citysig on Jun 25, 2007 8:26:46 GMT
I was in charge of it during the morning (cannot believe the problem was still ongoing by the late evening - they fixed the points once  ) I was working the area slightly differently to Harsig, and was able to have trains arrive and depart with correct descriptions. The information ex-Whitechapel may have been a bit more reliable for me - who knows. However, what most people may not have seen was that every Aldgate East reverser was numbered as Train 100. There was an irony on this day that, due to a failure at Whitechapel, we were able to provide District line punters with a better service than planned (i.e. extended to run Aldgate East-Upminster.) ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 13:36:42 GMT
There was an irony on this day that, due to a failure at Whitechapel, we were able to provide District line punters with a better service than planned (i.e. extended to run Aldgate East-Upminster.) ;D But not the drivers. When reversing at Whitechapel, once the doors are open the passengers scatter in all directions to get connections, but at Aldgate East they stand on the platform and as the driver changes ends ask him the same things which he has just explained on the train PA. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2007 22:34:45 GMT
I rather enjoyed it, i did get the questions but everyone seemed pleased with the answers they got from me ! I did have refurbished stock mind you, so the train was very clearly showing and saying Upminster by the time I got to Aldgate East !
It made a refeshing change from the norm ...and as Citysig says how often can it be said that a failure was benefiting the passengers ;D ;D ;D
I was also triggering the automated announcement "Due to planned engineering works the District Line is suspended between Earl's Court and Whitechapel" there isn't one for "Earl's Court - Aldgate East" seems that was never envisaged. Nor is there one for the other weeks " West Kensington - Ricmond and Ealing / Acton" seems that was never envisaged either !
As for Aldgate East i even managed to eject a drunk vagrant from the train and still get to Whitechapel for the booked departure time there ... I was less pleased to find said vagrant back in the train when I came to empty it out at Upminster ...where he then recieved the attentions of the British Transport Police.
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Post by citysig on Jun 26, 2007 9:36:28 GMT
But not the drivers. When reversing at Whitechapel, once the doors are open the passengers scatter in all directions to get connections, but at Aldgate East they stand on the platform and as the driver changes ends ask him the same things which he has just explained on the train PA. I glanced at the CCTV monitor a couple of times and noticed they were all lingering - even after the passage of the following H&C. I suppose they though that given we had extended the service, that maybe we'd go the whole hog and reopen the line to Earl's Court. Passengers eh. Give 'em and extra stop and they take a line ;D ... there isn't one for "Earl's Court - Aldgate East" seems that was never envisaged. Maybe they knew what we'd say. It's alright to do it now and then, but don't go planning to make us do it regularly. Besides, it may have benefitted the District, but it made the H&Cs ex-Barking upwards of 15 late. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 19:06:11 GMT
I didn't realise the indicators were clever enough to look for a matching train in the TT .... come to think of it, how then does it cope with, say a Parsons Green, which may often appear but not be timetabled !!
IIRC from my brief spell in Whitechapel cabin, we always had to phone ahead and warn Baker St if they were getting a PG train otherwise the computer might clear a wrong signal without warning.
tfc
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Post by c5 on Jun 26, 2007 19:09:06 GMT
It would pick up the TD for the next timetabled PG train, then sit at Aldgate East, until...... ;D ;D ;D Someone intervenes!
Now I cant recall what happens if a TD is set up, but there is not one timetabled, does it pick up the next train to arrive on the timetable...? - City/HarSig!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2007 19:17:07 GMT
Maybe that is why there used to be problems with the 'wheel wear' Circle Line reversers that would go round at Whitechapel - the auto-matching circuit in Aldgate IMR or the software at Baker Street SCC was picking the Richmond TD in lieu of the Circle TD because the C stocks were running through the area near to the time that a Richmond train was expected to.
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Post by citysig on Jun 27, 2007 6:19:55 GMT
There is a clever system for allocating train descriptions to trains. It works like this:
The adjacent signal cabin / control room sends forward a train description (TD). The system will check the TD against the timetable and match it to the next train of that TD it is expecting. This allows trains to leave the adjacent area out of timetable order and still be allocated correctly.
Should the adjacent area send an "incorrect" TD, the system will look down the next 100 timetable entries or 45 minutes (whichever the greater) to attempt to find a train that matches. If there is no such entry then the system will allocate the train as the next one in timetable order that it was expecting.
For example, if Edgware Road send us a "Kings Cross" TD at around 0800, and we were expecting a Circle, the system will allocate a Circle. But if they send a "Kings Cross" at around midnight and we were expecting a Circle, a Kings Cross train would be allocated (as there is a booked reverser expected within the next half an hour).
Tfc, the call to Baker Street is necessary as there are no booked Parsons Green trains in the timetable - and so as shown above, if such a TD was sent, then the next timetabled train would be allocated.
Now. The Circle Line ex-Whitechapel problem occurs simply because Whitechapel do not have a "Circle Line" TD that they can send. We get around the issue by using "Met Line" for Inner-rail Circles and "Special" for Outer Rails ex-Whitechapel.
If the Whitechapel signal operator puts up a different TD for the Circles - without informing us - then the system will allocate the train as the next one in the timetable with that TD (or the next timetabled train if no such TD exists.)
Hope this helps.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2007 1:44:50 GMT
Now. The Circle Line ex-Whitechapel problem occurs simply because Whitechapel do not have a "Circle Line" TD that they can send. We get around the issue by using "Met Line" for Inner-rail Circles and "Special" for Outer Rails ex-Whitechapel. If the Whitechapel signal operator puts up a different TD for the Circles - without informing us - then the system will allocate the train as the next one in the timetable with that TD (or the next timetabled train if no such TD exists.) Hope this helps. It most certainly does! Thanks citysig  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 12:45:47 GMT
A bit late, but I'd also like to add my thanks to Citysig for that detailed and interesting explanation.
It also adds to a comment heard over the radio yesterday when the LC remarked that a delay on the w/b at Aldgate East was due to an East London Line stock move arriving at Aldgate East with no TD, the "computer" didn't know what it was, so did nothing. (May one ask how the East London Trains are usually described ?)
I also saw an outer rail circle at Aldgate East, but despite crraning my head, I couldn't see what TD was on the platform describer.
I also passed several Olympia bound trains through the city, which is always entertaining. I passed set 151 at Bromley-By-Bow, so that had evidently been on some diversion !
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Post by Colin on Jul 6, 2007 14:03:53 GMT
151 went to Barking, after having been to Wimbledon. Dunno what that was all about, but I was around when my fellow spare got the Barking & back.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 14:09:31 GMT
I also saw an outer rail circle at Aldgate East, but despite crraning my head, I couldn't see what TD was on the platform describer. Outer Rail Circles used to be described as Baker Street. |
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Post by citysig on Jul 12, 2007 9:30:00 GMT
It also adds to a comment heard over the radio yesterday when the LC remarked that a delay on the w/b at Aldgate East was due to an East London Line stock move arriving at Aldgate East with no TD, the "computer" didn't know what it was, so did nothing. (May one ask how the East London Trains are usually described ?) I also saw an outer rail circle at Aldgate East, but despite crraning my head, I couldn't see what TD was on the platform describer. Sounds like a good day to be on leave (which I am for a week or two ;D ) The East London Line stock normally leaves Whitechapel's area without a description. I cannot recall if this is due to a defect in the equipment, or if they are unable to set a description on St Mary's Curve. Our system, being Train Description driven, always likes to see a TD. As such, any track circuit which is indicated occupied (either by a train or through a failure) is given a train description. If a track drops within our area, the default TD given is "Special / Not In Service." If a train from another area arrives without a TD, the next timetabled train is allocated. If the Whitechapel signalman is a little quick in sending the ELL train, we don't have time to "prepare" the computer for the additional train, and so it can allocate as the next timetabled train. Lucky if a "Hammersmith" train is expected, as although the wrong TD will be allocated, at least the route will be correct. However, if a Richmond was expected, you've guessed it, the route towards Tower Hill will be set. A similar thing happened a few years back (those who have known me a while will already know the story.) A late-night ELL stock move picked up an incorrect TD, got the route towards Tower Hill and promptly took it. So there were 8 cars of A-stock merrily trundling along the south side of the Circle, scraping platforms as it went. Long story short, the train was routed via the District and then Picc to Rayners Lane (scraping a few bridges on that part) and eventually back to Neasden depot. The Outer Rail may have been diverted to Whitechapel either as a result of a shutdown on the Circle, or maybe to cover a service interval. If we have done our job correctly, the TD would have shown correctly as we would have changed it to Whitechapel / Barking etc. The number shown on the train and the destination blind at the rear are unlikely to have been changed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2007 22:57:44 GMT
The Outer Rail may have been diverted to Whitechapel either as a result of a shutdown on the Circle, or maybe to cover a service interval. If we have done our job correctly, the TD would have shown correctly as we would have changed it to Whitechapel / Barking etc. The number shown on the train and the destination blind at the rear are unlikely to have been changed. My apologies, I meant the outer rail was returning to the Circle, it was at Aldgate East w/b and indeed moved off as i was on the pointwork heading e/b. But it's moving off stopped me seeing it's platform TD. Today I passed a C stock heading w/b at Stepney Green to Wimbledon ! The District's C's can be, but are not often, diverted that far east ...unless it had been off for east end driver stock training in Barking sidings which happens ocassionally. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2007 13:56:44 GMT
A similar thing happened a few years back (those who have known me a while will already know the story.) A late-night ELL stock move picked up an incorrect TD, got the route towards Tower Hill and promptly took it. So there were 8 cars of A-stock merrily trundling along the south side of the Circle, scraping platforms as it went. Long story short, the train was routed via the District and then Picc to Rayners Lane (scraping a few bridges on that part) and eventually back to Neasden depot. Really?! Anyone get any photos of that event? I'd love to see them! |
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Post by citysig on Aug 6, 2007 17:55:39 GMT
I doubt it because: It happened after 2300hrs, It wasn't planned so nobody would have been given advance warning, To begin with nobody (apart from the T/Op) even knew it was happening (and it's questionable if even he knew  ) Even once we knew it was happening only a couple of people were involved. ;D |
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Post by Ben on Aug 7, 2007 0:15:30 GMT
By the sounds of it the A involved took a small bashing. How long was it out of service after? Sounds hilarious though |
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Post by citysig on Aug 7, 2007 9:48:08 GMT
I believe the damage overall to both stations, bridges and the stock was little more than a few scratches and dents - though we did hear that some platform edges had been dislodged but not in a way that would close the station.
Even so, trains, platforms and bridges are not meant to come into contact with one another, however slightly. But at least on this occasion there was no lasting damage except to the driver's and my own pride (his more than mine of course ;D )
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