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Post by paterson00 on Jul 9, 2009 4:06:49 GMT
What colour lever will operate what?
Isn't a blue lever for the FPL?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 9, 2009 9:03:57 GMT
What colour lever will operate what? Isn't a blue lever for the FPL? Yes; but the LUL colour code is different. Red is for signals (same as NR) Black is for points (same as NR) Yellow is for a release lever ( not as a distant on NR) Red/Black are for route levers [1] Brown is for a level crossing (Neasden IMR only) Blue is for a King lever [2] Green was used as a Train Description lever, but isn't now, I think White is for spares (as NR) [1] route levers are used where the amount of locking on a lever with the interlocking designed in the NR would exceed the room in the locking trays (or identical functions would be repeated on levers); therefore (for example) the locking through a junction that is common to both routes from diverging junction homes could be put on a route lever. The route lever would 'hold' whichever route was being taken - as an example there are two route levers through Aldgate coming from the Liverpool Street direction. The outer home and junction home both read into the two route levers and it is the route levers that set the road, then the signals will clear. Route levers will simplify the contents of the locking trays and IIRC enable quicker route releasing and calling. [2]All points worked from an interlocking or frame (with the exception of Totteridge & Whetstone) are power worked on the network, so there are no separate FPL levers. HTH. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2009 9:23:30 GMT
you forgot a lever
Green = T/D set up (dont think any left though)
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Post by citysig on Jul 10, 2009 9:36:35 GMT
you forgot a lever Green = T/D set up (dont think any left though) Red is for signals (same as NR) Black is for points (same as NR) Yellow is for a release lever ( not as a distant on NR) Red/Black are for route levers [1] Brown is for a level crossing (Neasden IMR only) Blue is for a King lever [2] Green was used as a Train Description lever, but isn't now, I thinkWhite is for spares (as NR) He didn't and there aren't any in action on LU anymore ;D |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 10, 2009 11:22:57 GMT
I know this is drifting slightly away from the OP; but it fits in with something I've had sculling around in my 'I really must get round to asking that question sometime' pile of thoughts: where were TD levers fitted, and how did they work? Just to add a little bit more detail, was it with the old ribbon storage TD/one out of twelve system? I can envisage a hypothetical installation, lets call it box 'AE'. Now then; box AE has a large and complex junction to the south of the station, where all platforms are accessible for arrivals and departures. AE works to box AG northwards and boxes NW and AD/AC southwards. If a TD lever is used with RSTD, the sending circuits could be significantly simplified as the signalman would clear the necessary route, set up the TD on the dial, clear the starters and then pull the TD lever. I can envisage this sort of situation ( perhaps) simplifying the circuitry for the train storage facilities on the ribbon storage TD. However, I can also think of an alternative, used during the transition between manual and programme machine working. Consider another hypothetical signal box, let's call it 'NQ', now the working between junction E and signalbox NQ is controlled by programme machines. NQ is still manned, but the signalman needs to convert the manual train description coming in southbound from 'box NU from the ribbon storage type to the programme machine type - in this circumstance would the TD lever be used to convert the one out of twelve to ABCD? I can also think of a third alternative ( sorry, chaps) with Bethnal Green and possibly North Acton. Now, North Acton was a slave cabin and looking at the 1947 opening notice there was RSTD provided westbound (North Acton - Wood Lane), so I can conceptualise the circuitry being again simplified by only having a recieving instrument, setting up the TD by telephone key and then pulling the green lever to set up, rather than 'punching up'. I know Bethnal Green did not have TD facilities provided - rather than a slave frame it was only opened as required. Now, in this circumstance - Bethnal Green being only a 'through' layout with a crossover, I can see there being a cost saving implication by not providing the full train description set up: when the Central extended to Newbury Park and Woodford the perinent paragraph from the yellow peril is 62 Train Description
(a) Train description of the ribbon storage type will be provided between Leytonstone and Liverpool Street and the destinations of the first and second trains will be displayed at all platforms on the eastbound road. Signal box annunciators will be provided at Leytonstone and Leyton signal boxes.
(b) Automatic retransmission of descriptions recieved will be provided at Leyton and Liverpool Street and will become operative when the king levers in these signal boxes are revesed. when any of the above signal boxes are being opened transmission of train description must be carried out by hand. In the event of a Signalman omitting to describe a train a warning bell will be sounded when the train leaves the station All well and good, but no mention of Bethnal Green - even the notice that covers the opening of Bethnal Green 'box doesn't mention TD working at all - this I suppose is sensible as all trains were initially heading towards Drapers Field and no further. The Liverpool Street signalman would punch up TDs for the westbound trains. For the sake of argument almost all trains would go through Bethnal Green without reversing (obviously I've got most of the WTTs to hand that cover the working there, including a note of the opening/closing times), it would be significantly cheaper just to only have a 'recieve' display at Bethnal Green (rather than a full set of punch drums) and if the train were not reversing then the TD lever would be pulled to send on the same description in the same direction - opening Bethnal Green 'box would break the through TD lines. I'm pretty sure that there wasn't a dedicated lever as such at Bethnal Green, more likely a telephone key. I guess that this list isn't exhaustive, and there are other possiblilities - has anyone got any likely ideas (and hopefully a bit of operating explanation behind the ideas). Can anyone say where these TD set up levers were used, please? Sorry for the long and rambling thread drift!
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 10, 2009 11:40:13 GMT
What colour lever will operate what? Isn't a blue lever for the FPL? Yes; but the LUL colour code is different. Red is for signals (same as NR) Black is for points (same as NR) Yellow is for a release lever ( not as a distant on NR) Red/Black are for route levers [1] Brown is for a level crossing (Neasden IMR only) Blue is for a King lever [2] Green was used as a Train Description lever, but isn't now, I think White is for spares (as NR) [1] route levers are used where the amount of locking on a lever with the interlocking designed in the NR would exceed the room in the locking trays (or identical functions would be repeated on levers); therefore (for example) the locking through a junction that is common to both routes from diverging junction homes could be put on a route lever. The route lever would 'hold' whichever route was being taken - as an example there are two route levers through Aldgate coming from the Liverpool Street direction. The outer home and junction home both read into the two route levers and it is the route levers that set the road, then the signals will clear. Route levers will simplify the contents of the locking trays and IIRC enable quicker route releasing and calling. [2]All points worked from an interlocking or frame (with the exception of Totteridge & Whetstone) are power worked on the network, so there are no separate FPL levers. HTH. Not quite a full set there! The east end of the Picc has Red/Yellow levers for Switchlock points and I can't now recall the colour for 9s lever at Boston Manor, it being for 11 & 12 Switchlocks but it is not Red/Yellow as at the east end IIRC. Acton East IMR had a blue/black lever, it was plated out although the shaft contacts were still in circuit. AFAIK it is still in situ. |
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Post by JR 15secs on Jul 10, 2009 13:29:26 GMT
The TD levers were at the east end of the Picc Cockfosters to Arnos Grove IIRC.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 10, 2009 14:06:36 GMT
Bum. That puts some of my theories to bed.  |
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Post by Harsig on Jul 10, 2009 14:29:44 GMT
The TD levers were at the east end of the Picc Cockfosters to Arnos Grove IIRC. That was certainly my understanding and in all cases the lever was concerned with the remote operation of Wood Green Siding. The following extracts from Supplement to Traffic Notice 29/33 'Bringing into use of New Lines Between Enfield West and Cockfosters' are relevant: |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Jul 10, 2009 14:41:47 GMT
I was always under the imprestion that the T/D lever was in Arnos Grove signal box, did Cockfosters and Enfield West signal Boxes also have T/D levers ?
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Post by Harsig on Jul 10, 2009 14:51:03 GMT
I was always under the imprestion that the T/D lever was in Arnos Grove signal box, did Cockfosters and Enfield West signal Boxes also have T/D levers ? That's certainly what the above quoted notice implies although they were only used when all signal boxes closer to Wood Green were switched out. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 10, 2009 15:34:35 GMT
(c) Operation of train describer, when box switched in. The platform transmitter should be operated to show the destination of the next westbound train, the platform switch having been previously set to indicate the correct platform. The transmitter to Wood Green should be operated for every train while Wood Green is under remote control and Arnos Grove signal box is switched out. Ten minutes before the automatic operation of Wood Green from Enfield West commences, the Signalman at Enfield West must commence sending the destination and non stop code of trains starting from Wood Green in addition to those leaving Enfield West. This must be done in correct sequence and No. 9 lever must be reversed when sending the description of a train starting from Wood Green. Top stuff Harsig thank-you - looks like not all of the theories were quite so off-beam as I thought. The TD lever was obviously used to save on RSTD equipment; with this there would only need to be one transmitter per box or supervising box, rather than one for each platform. ( I think)  |
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Post by d7666 on Jul 10, 2009 15:57:34 GMT
Can you enlighten me what is different about T&W ?
Ae you saying they are not power worked, or am I mis-reading this ?
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Nick
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 10, 2009 16:15:21 GMT
No, you're not mis-reading .
T&W (we did work out the Welsh name after a speculative enquiry from tubeprune ages and ages ago) still has a ground frame with 2 levers; one for the fpls even though they are both trailing and one for the crossover points. Think they are numbered (rather unusually) 21 and 22. Proper mechanical point rodding too!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2009 17:58:44 GMT
Black and white arrows - Detonator Placers - pointing up for up line, down for down line. NR only.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Jul 10, 2009 18:06:41 GMT
No, you're not mis-reading . T&W (we did work out the Welsh name after a speculative enquiry from tubeprune ages and ages ago) still has a ground frame with 2 levers; one for the fpls even though they are both trailing and one for the crossover points. Think they are numbered (rather unusually) 21 and 22. Proper mechanical point rodding too! There was another ground frame at this location to control the goods yard. |
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Post by d7666 on Jul 10, 2009 18:10:42 GMT
[quote
a ground frame with 2 levers;
Proper mechanical point rodding too![/quote]
Thanks.
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Nick
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jul 11, 2009 0:36:41 GMT
*back on topic*
Do you really want to know about the yellow/red; red with black band, brown with three white bands, green and other green and red with white band, yellow with white band, blue over black, brown over blue/blue over brown and yet another green?
Or are you happy with the information you've got?
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