Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Nov 4, 2009 1:04:57 GMT
It made me wonder if there are journeys half-way round the circle that will now be quicker in the other direction to avoid an unavoidable change at Edgware Road? High Street Kensington to Liverpool Street is currently: 26 minutes via Bayswater 28 minutes via Queensway (change at Notting Hill Gate) 30 minutes via Aldgate So unless you are guaranteed a change at Edgware Road taking less than 4 minutes (not a bet I'd take) it will be quicker to change route High Street Kensington to Moorgate 25 minutes via Bayswater 29 minutes via Monument/Bank and the Northern Line 31 minutes via Aldgate Again it seems that the journey via Bayswater will no longer be quickest High Street Kensington to Kings Cross 18 minutes via Bayswater 25 minutes via Notting Hill Gate and Oxford Circus 27 minutes via South Kensington and Piccadilly Line 37 minutes via Aldgate The change at Oxford Circus involves quite a long walk, and the one at Notting Hill Gate isn't superb either so I suspect that this will not be a popular option for many. Will changes at Edgware Road take reliably less than 9 minutes and be less hassle than the change at South Ken? If the timetable works as Met Controller says it does on paper, then the answer to the first question will be yes, if it works as badly in practice as the skeptics think then it is less certain. Interchange at Edgware Road could be tricky if it isn't cross-platform (I can't remember if it isn't) given the volume of passenger movements, but I don't think I've ever interchanged at South Kensington so I don't know how it compares. Could be tough call this journey. Gloucester Road to Moorgate 26 minutes via Monument/Bank and the Northern Line 27 minutes via Aldgate 28 minutes via Bayswater Very little in this one, but the New Circle isn't going to make the journey via Bayswater any quicker. Gloucester Road to Liverpool Street 26 minutes via Aldgate 29 minutes via Monument/Bank and the Northern Line 29 minutes via Bayswater No change for pax making this journey Gloucester Road to Euston Square 20 minutes via Bayswater 37 minutes via Aldgate I suspect that via Bayswater will still be the quickest, although obviously not as quick or convenient. Notting Hill Gate to Moorgate 23 minutes via Bank 23 minutes via Bayswater 24 minutes via Liverpool Street and street-level walk 33 minutes via Aldgate I predict more passengers for the Central Line here. Paddington (Praed Street) - Tower Hill 26 minutes via Great Portland Street 30 minutes via the Bakerloo Line to Embankment 31 minutes via Bayswater It isn't currently possible to get direct from Paddington Bishops Road to Tower Hill, but if the journey time to Edgware Road is about the same (I can't make the journey planner tell me) I'd switch to going via Bayswater or the Bakerloo myself. The reverse journey will depend entirely one which Paddington station you want to end up at (take a train from the eastbound platform to end up at the western Paddington station, which is a long way west of Tower Hill) Sloane Square to Baker Street 19 minutes via Victoria and Oxford Circus 20 minutes via Westminster 23 minutes via Bayswater 31 minutes via Aldgate The New Circle will make the only direct journey possibility a trip via Aldgate, which at 20-25 minutes longer than the double change is not an attractive option for most. I'd probably take the Jubilee Line option myself, given how overcrowded the Victoria Line already is. Temple to Baker Street 16 minutes via Bakerloo from Embankment 27 minutes via Aldgate 30 minutes via Bayswater I doubt anyone making this journey will change their route. I predict that passengers to and from the Bayswater area will make increased use of the Central Line to and from the eastern parts of the Circle. All timings are those given by the TfL Journey Planner are the average of journeys commencing at 13:02 on Wednesday 4/11/2009, |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 4, 2009 9:18:12 GMT
Just looking at the trial TTN, EB and Outer Rail connections are (booked) 4 minutes, WB and Inner Rail are (booked) 2½ minutes at ERd.
I can't see that changing too much when the full WTT comes in - but I can see possibly some of the stand time tweaked out at HSK Inner Rail [I'd guess an occasional 'c' becomes a 'd' or 'e'] and Baker St. Outer Rail [guessing the fixed 'b' thoughout the day will change as the service levels elide together], given that MB34 seems to favour the Met. rather than MB16 or MB17 of the Circle.
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Post by 21146 on Nov 4, 2009 10:22:58 GMT
It beggars belief that this is being claimed as "part of the TFL Investment Progamme". What excactly is the "Investment" here? An extra signaller at Edgware Road and two new signs at Paddington (Sub)?
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Post by citysig on Nov 4, 2009 12:32:19 GMT
given that MB34 seems to favour the Met. rather than MB16 or MB17 of the Circle. It's not really as cut and dry as that, and some of the "issues" that are related to it being called for so early on are due to be ironed out very soon. Of course, without so many Mets in the city, MB34 would not be needed as much ;D What's that you say? We're getting an extra one  ;D |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 4, 2009 17:44:59 GMT
It made me wonder if there are journeys half-way round the circle that will now be quicker in the other direction to avoid an unavoidable change at Edgware Road? High Street Kensington to Liverpool Street is currently: 26 minutes via Bayswater 28 minutes via Queensway (change at Notting Hill Gate) 30 minutes via Aldgate High Street Kensington to Moorgate 25 minutes via Bayswater 29 minutes via Monument/Bank and the Northern Line 31 minutes via Aldgate High Street Kensington to Kings Cross 18 minutes via Bayswater 25 minutes via Notting Hill Gate and Oxford Circus 27 minutes via South Kensington and Piccadilly Line 37 minutes via Aldgate Gloucester Road to Moorgate 26 minutes via Monument/Bank and the Northern Line 27 minutes via Aldgate 28 minutes via Bayswater Gloucester Road to Euston Square 20 minutes via Bayswater 37 minutes via Aldgate Bear in mind though that these timings take no account of waiting times, which can be longer for the Circle (both before and after the changes) So for instance HSK to Liverpool St is probably quicker via the Central Line already if the first train to appear is a "Wimbleware". To Moorgate I'd take my chances at Edgware Road unless a southbound Circle was imminent Again, the route suggested to Kings Cross via South Ken relies on the infrequent Circle Line, although if a Wimbledon train comes first a change at Earls Court would be almost as good. Gloucester Rd to Euston Sq in 20 minutes looks ambitious even now, with three flat junctons to negotiate. I would have gone via L Sq and the Northern Line to Euston, or via Victoria. Interchange at Edgware Road could be tricky if it isn't cross-platform (I can't remember if it isn't) It can be - it's a 50/50. Apparently terminating Circles will use platform 2 which will give cross platform with eastbound trains from Hammersmith, and Wimbledon trains will use platform 3 which will give cross platform interchange with westbound Hammersmith trains. Trouble is, for passengers from HSK, NHG and Bayswater, there will be no way of telling where the train has come from and therefore whether it is going to platform 2 or platform 3 at E Rd I don't think I've ever interchanged at South Kensington so I don't know how it compares. Down two flights if changing from SSL to E/bd Piccadilly, another flight for the westbound. The split level is because the Piccadilly station was designed as a junction, but the main line to the east was never built, only the branch: hence the tight curvature as the line curves away to the NE |
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Post by uzairjubilee on Nov 4, 2009 18:55:16 GMT
Does anyone have an idea of when DVA's/DMI's and destination blinds will be amended?
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Post by citysig on Nov 5, 2009 11:10:48 GMT
Does anyone have an idea of when DVA's/DMI's and destination blinds will be amended? Anything that can be amended using an easily removed sticker  will more than likely be done prior to 13th December. Everything else "more permanent" is likely to be left more or less as it is until a while after the "bedding in period..." |
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 5, 2009 17:57:37 GMT
Will the destination blinds need to be amended?
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Post by happybunny on Nov 5, 2009 17:58:19 GMT
I have heard rumours that the timetable will not be coming in until after the new year.. this is due to ALL depots concerned having 'thrown out' the new rosters which are vital to the new service coming in.
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Nov 5, 2009 18:38:25 GMT
HB - I'd be surprised if that's the case - considering that posters and flyers are out advertising the change, plus it's also on the website.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 5, 2009 19:03:40 GMT
Whilst Upminster have made their feelings known to Scheduling, I'm not so sure an official objection has gone in - so you'd certainly be wrong to say all depots have rejected it. That being said, I am aware that issues have been identified at Earls Court whereby the new rosters apparently don't comply with existing agreements regarding the fixed link rostering that they already have in place. Hammersmith (H&C) have objected but only on the grounds that it will become an 'extremes' depot (only earlies & lates) - is that reason enough to drop the T-Cup? The only other issue surrounds the Met and the new Harrow depot - the upset being caused by all of Neasden's (or would it be Wembley Park?) night turns moving to Harrow thus apparently making the roster at the former unbalanced. One thing is certain though; it would appear to have been a deliberate act by management in not making the new roster details available early enough - and as for the actual duties......  |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 5, 2009 19:48:05 GMT
I wonder if this is the start of a more hardline LU management following the changes in Mayor and then LU Managing Director?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 5, 2009 19:50:21 GMT
I'm sure at least one station still has Barbican plated over Aldersgate! An odyssey from Lpool St to Bayswater this lunchtime revealed new signs already up at the entrance and on the westbound platforms at Liverpool Street, and Euston Square, and at the entrance to Barbican. But: I'm sure somewhere I've recently seen the H&C still shown as (Metropolitan) purple on a station diagram. I was right! On the platform at Barbican the line diagram still has the Hammersmith branch shown in purple, with a plated-over title with the three line names, and a broken pink plate screwed on next to the Hammersmith branch saying something like ERSMITH ITY LINE I took a photo. What's the easiest way to share it with the rest of you? I also had the rare experience of getting a Wimbledon train at Baker Street! It used platform 3 at E Rd. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Nov 5, 2009 20:53:30 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 5, 2009 21:17:00 GMT
Will the destination blinds need to be amended? Post number #49 by 21146 was quoting from a District Line staff newsletter of the time. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2009 21:18:34 GMT
Regarding the need to know where the trains started from, I wonder if we will see a return of the 1938 Tube Stock method of propping up an enamelled yellow plate that reads "Via Earl's Court" on one side and "Via Wood Lane" on another.
If the service succeeds (which seems unlikely based on some of the posts here), then you could modify the roller blinds.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 6, 2009 7:28:07 GMT
Will the destination blinds need to be amended? Post number #49 by 21146 was quoting from a District Line staff newsletter of the time. That quote says that trains in each direction will show "Circle Line via Aldgate" until they get there, where they will switch to "Circle Line to Hammersmith" or "Circle Line to Edgware Road". This means that you would have trains on opposite faces of the island platform 1 and 2 at Edgware Road, both for "Circle Line via Aldgate", but going in opposite directions! That doesn't seem very helpful! |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Nov 6, 2009 7:44:46 GMT
I'm sure just having "Circle - Hammersmith" and "Circle - Edgware Road" would be enough to cover it. Having a "via" will surely only confuse the issue.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 6, 2009 8:43:34 GMT
I see that the light-box describer at High Street Kensington EB has now been removed.
Probably to be replaced with a fixed "all trains go to Edgware Road" board, in the name of "investment programme"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2009 12:24:11 GMT
Whilst Upminster have made their feelings known to Scheduling, I'm not so sure an official objection has gone in - so you'd certainly be wrong to say all depots have rejected it. My understanding is ...It would be more accurate to state Upminster depot reps have made their feelings known to scheduling ... as opposed to the feelings of their membership. Upminster depot reps (apparently) having taken the line they have no position to reject anything so long as it meets rostering framework agreements. (They don't take this line on a load of other irrelevant things where they also have no direct position to reject them). Hammersmith (H&C) have objected but only on the grounds that it will become an 'extremes' depot (only earlies & lates) Upminster looses most of it's middle turns and in consequence becomes an extremes depot too. |
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Nov 6, 2009 16:51:37 GMT
Oh, no different to the buses then......
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Post by North End on Nov 6, 2009 17:48:51 GMT
I see that the light-box describer at High Street Kensington EB has now been removed. Probably to be replaced with a fixed "all trains go to Edgware Road" board, in the name of "investment programme"? For a company which is now looking towards "efficiencies" in the operational side of the business, which could mean anything from savage cuts to the photocopying budget to staff cuts, it's still amazing how much money gets wasted on things which are really not necessary. I can see a situation in 5 years time when there are lots of blank dot-matrix indicators because there are not enough drivers to run the trains. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Nov 6, 2009 19:33:47 GMT
I have heard rumours that the timetable will not be coming in until after the new year.. this is due to ALL depots concerned having 'thrown out' the new rosters which are vital to the new service coming in. Thrown out  So long as the rota been solved within the constraints set (i.e. drivers aren't driving for longer than the agreed time, have sufficient teabreak time etc), how are they able to be "thrown out"? Either way, the process of generating a rota is NP-complete. For a system as complex as the Underground, it is probably very unlikely that a perfect solution to the problem will be found. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 7, 2009 0:43:36 GMT
I can see a situation in 5 years time when there are lots of blank dot-matrix indicators because there are not enough drivers to run the trains. Become pertubed when you see a WTT beginning with 'A(number)' Start worrying if you see a Saturday WTT beginning with 'C(number)' If there is ever a WTT issued with 'E(number)' then become quite worried...... (apologies to non-timetable types who won't see the humour) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2009 15:06:25 GMT
To go back to the various routes mentioned up-thread, I suspect most people prefer a route that doesn't involve changing trains even if it isn't quite the quickest, i.e sitting in a train is preferred to standing on a platform.
I don't know if LUL knows what "value" people put on a through train, but IMHO it ought to!
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Post by citysig on Nov 7, 2009 20:41:21 GMT
Well, when you think about it, perhaps they do. You can now get a through train from Hammersmith to Bayswater. Takes a little while but you don't have to get off the train and wait on the platform. Now we never had that travel opportunity before ;D ;D
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 7, 2009 21:16:22 GMT
Takes a little while but you don't have to get off the train and wait on the platform. Now we never had that travel opportunity before ;D ;D Not in your lifetime! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2009 19:20:41 GMT
Well, when you think about it, perhaps they do. You can now get a through train from Hammersmith to Bayswater. Takes a little while but you don't have to get off the train and wait on the platform. Now we never had that travel opportunity before ;D ;D I did say "[shadow=red,left,300]quite[/shadow] the quickest" but this might come in handy if I'm ever at Bayswater & get asked the train for Hammersmith by an Albanian "businessman". Though I doubt he'd use the Tube. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2009 14:34:36 GMT
Unfortunately, despite what some of us on here thought (including myself!) a start has already been made to replace the many enamelled signs around the system to show the 'extended' Circle Line Yes, I noticed that at KX this morning and have to eat my words of last week! This means the new line is pretty permanent - if not, an awful lot of money will have been wasted. Fingers crossed it works OK come 13 December... Incidentally, why is Wood Lane not shown as an interchange on the new line diagrams? |
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Post by jakehn54 on Nov 11, 2009 14:45:00 GMT
Well im sure the ''HammerCircle line '' is likely to work, if they are spending this money now. |
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;D
will more than likely be done prior to 13th December. Everything else "more permanent" is likely to be left more or less as it is until a while after the "bedding in period..."
