Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 5, 2007 7:42:29 GMT
The Heathrow branch is regrettably served by tube trains, however untill 1964 the Hounslow branch saw peak hour Districts. It was said on this forum that the Hatton Cross extension only became tube gauge regrettably because of ecconomies. Browsing t'internet t'other day for transport schemes I came across this on the author Mike Hornes site: "An internal London Transport report of 1948 noted the importance both of the proposed express tube schemes, and of the need to serve the airport, but preferred a more realistic option. An extension of the Hounslow branch to London Airport was seen as the soultion. However the point was made that the airport was 'too far out to suffer at the hands of an 'all stations' service', and suggested that airport trains should run substantially 'non stop', which could be achieved by extending the four tracking from Northfields to Hounslow East. The observation was made that the District Line trains had a higher capacity and rode somewhat better than those of the Piccadilly Line, and proposed that it be the District Line which was extended to the airport" www.metadyne.co.uk/AIRPORT2.pdfMy question is, was this four tracking ever evolved into even a conceptual design? I noticed the diagram for four-tracking to Hanger Lane Junction earlier and wonderd if something similar was produced for this scheme. Many thanks.
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Jan 5, 2007 8:07:34 GMT
District services to Hounslow West ceased 9th October 1964, and to Northfields on the 10th. The line had to be to tube gauge because the section to Hatton Cross was cut-and-cover and is barely below the road surface...it was bad enough digging up and the inconvenience to all and sundry as it was. Also it had to climb over the River Crane as I said before. Then of course there was the tube tunnels to Heathrow Central through the gravel under the airport. However at least SS stock could reverse at Hounslow Central, until the bridges over Lampton and Kingsley Roads were replaced with tube gauge versions only..short-sighted in my opinion.
I have never seen any reference to four-tracking myself when I researched the subject 30 + years ago, but there were also discussions about extending the SR to the airport from just south of Feltham, and even a monorail from Feltham! I believe that there was talk also of extending the District to Heathrow, then to Feltham to link up, and then rejoin via Richmond?
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
Posts: 4,282
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Post by Ben on Jan 5, 2007 8:11:17 GMT
Sorry about the 1966 date! I'll change that, cheers:)
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
Posts: 3,234
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Post by Oracle on Jan 5, 2007 10:27:20 GMT
One source worth exploring is the weekly MIDDLESEX CHRONICLE paper that carried info regularly on the proposed London Airport schemes. In theory a four-track from Northfields could have been achieved but would it have meant house demolition in the Boston Manor area adjacent to the Depot? A large portion of Osterley Park would have been gobbled up, Osterley Station would have had to be rebuilt, and possibly the LT sports ground at Osterley eaten into.
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Post by johnb on Jan 5, 2007 11:43:26 GMT
AIUI, the main reason for making the extension Picc rather than District was that The Powers That Be wanted to create a direct link to King's Cross so they could sell the line's benefits to north-of-London travellers. Once that decision was made, the money-saving measure of tube gauge construction had to follow...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 17:17:53 GMT
There is also the fact that despite the District's direct service to Victoria and the City, the Piccadilly directly serves the West End, as well as King's Cross. It was probably felt that since people who would use Victoria BR would probably head for Gatwick instead of Heathrow (and since Airtrack did not exist and patronage on the Feltham-Heathrow bus services was undoubtedly not high enough to trip a threshold in planners' heads) that connecting the Picc to Heathrow would be better than connecting the District. There is also the infrastructure constraint as well - see THIS THREAD for details from Oracle.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 5, 2007 19:05:57 GMT
the late J Graeme Bruce (former LT Operations Director) gave a talk to the LURS a few years ago. He said one of his biggest regrets, while in his powerful position, was NOT authorizing the Hounslow West-Hatton Cross line to be sub-surface stock height- rejected with a pen stroke purely on the grounds of cost. I was sure I had read the cost-cutting reason somwhere!
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Post by District Dave on Jan 5, 2007 21:31:08 GMT
Another point worth considering too of course is the original layout of London Heathrow.
When originally proposed and constructed the idea of having the terminal buildings in the central area seemed like a 'jolly good idea' and I'm sure I'm not the only 'older' member here who remembers the days when car traffic was so much lower than it was today and those (narrow!) twin bore tunnels allowing access from the A4 into the airport were free flowing.
LHR would never be designed like that today; it would be a more traditional 'buildings around the perimeter' (as indeed are T'3 4 and 5) design, which would allow much freer flowing road traffic.
So - if one extrapolates this premise - maybe the London Underground link would also have been a surface based design and thus more appropriate for a sub surface stock and running a perimeter service round the airport. Of course it would also have meant that the tunnelers would not have had to cope with the gravel nature of that area of west London and all the problems that this has caused; the tunnel collapse during the construction of the Heathrow Express as recently as the mid 1990's comes to mind! Of course the gravel nature was only one of a number of geological factors that made tube guage an 'easier' option, but I still suspect that a sub surface tunnel as deep as would have been needed would have been so much more expensive that it would have been doomed - at least at that time. Maybe with hindsight it would have now been seen as a good idea?
Of course too the original express coach service direct from the late lamented West London Air Terminal was more than adequate in the 1950's!
Ah - nostalgia! I'll be talking Vickers Viscounts, Bristol Brittanias, Lockheed Constellations, Boeing Stratocruisers et al next.............
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Post by agoodcuppa on Jan 5, 2007 21:46:27 GMT
Ah - nostalgia! I'll be talking Vickers Viscounts, Bristol Brittanias, Lockheed Constellations, Boeing Stratocruisers et al next............. Doubtless you'll be in the Vanguard? ;D
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Post by Bighat on Jan 5, 2007 21:59:10 GMT
Ah - nostalgia! I'll be talking Vickers Viscounts, Bristol Brittanias, Lockheed Constellations, Boeing Stratocruisers et al next............. Doubtless you'll be in the Vanguard? ;D Was the erstwhile Staines-West Drayton line ever considered? With the construction of T5, the Colnbrook-West Drayton track is STILL intact,and less than a mile from the boundary Anyway, what about the Deux Ponts (on cargo flights), Langedoc, Scandia, Convair 240/340/440 Metropolitains. Kept many a 1950's European airline in business!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 22:01:44 GMT
You have forgotten BOAC... Thats as far as my memory goes!
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Post by District Dave on Jan 5, 2007 22:08:56 GMT
Doubtless you'll be in the Vanguard? ;D Was the erstwhile Staines-West Drayton line ever considered? With the construction of T5, the Colnbrook-West Drayton track is STILL intact,and less than a mile from the boundary Anyway, what about the Deux Ponts (on cargo flights), Langedoc, Scandia, Convair 240/340/440 Metropolitains. Kept many a 1950's European airline in business! Oh dear, oh dear - I can hear the youngsters yawning already! And of course the entry into service of the first all jet airliners - I still remember the sight and sound of the Coronados! I grew up in Greenford under what was then the approach to the 'wet and windy' runway and remember so well the screaming of the early 707's, DC7's, Comets etc and the contrast of the last generation of prop driven airliners. Oh - Dakotas, Yorks, Hastings (I think - or am I now at Northolt). Who else remembers the infamous near miss of the Indian Air Force Connie (ex Northolt I think) and the TWA 707 (I think). I saw it - having been alerted by 'conflicting' engine sounds.
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Post by District Dave on Jan 5, 2007 22:10:44 GMT
You have forgotten BOAC... Thats as far as my memory goes! I can never forget BOAC - and of course their European counterpart BEA. Several friends from school went to those as apprentices and a few are still there. Had good Sports and Social facilities too
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Post by District Dave on Jan 5, 2007 22:16:22 GMT
Was the erstwhile Staines-West Drayton line ever considered? With the construction of T5, the Colnbrook-West Drayton track is STILL intact,and less than a mile from the boundaryquote] Is the Colnbrook - West Drayton line the branch from just west of West Drayton that I think was used for fuel tanker trains certainly during the mid 1990's? I remember in my previous working life I used to have a sandwich at lunchtime in that area and recall the tanker trains disappearing off on the loop from the main and crossing a hand work level crossing.
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Post by agoodcuppa on Jan 5, 2007 22:43:01 GMT
Is the Colnbrook - West Drayton line the branch from just west of West Drayton that I think was used for fuel tanker trains certainly during the mid 1990's? That's the one.
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Post by Bighat on Jan 5, 2007 23:28:08 GMT
Was the erstwhile Staines-West Drayton line ever considered? With the construction of T5, the Colnbrook-West Drayton track is STILL intact,and less than a mile from the boundary Anyway, what about the Deux Ponts (on cargo flights), Langedoc, Scandia, Convair 240/340/440 Metropolitains. Kept many a 1950's European airline in business! Oh dear, oh dear - I can hear the youngsters yawning already! And of course the entry into service of the first all jet airliners - I still remember the sight and sound of the Coronados! I grew up in Greenford under what was then the approach to the 'wet and windy' runway and remember so well the screaming of the early 707's, DC7's, Comets etc and the contrast of the last generation of prop driven airliners. Oh - Dakotas, Yorks, Hastings (I think - or am I now at Northolt). Who else remembers the infamous near miss of the Indian Air Force Connie (ex Northolt I think) and the TWA 707 (I think). I saw it - having been alerted by 'conflicting' engine sounds. Err....'fraid your memory's fading a bit here! The Douglas DC7C (Seven Seas in BOAC parlence) was a four engined piston aircraft. Only South African Airlines operated the DC7B to Europe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2007 23:42:22 GMT
I grew up in Greenford under what was then the approach to the 'wet and windy' runway and remember so well the screaming of the early 707's, DC7's, Comets etc and the contrast of the last generation of prop driven airliners. lol as a southall resident i remember the landing approach in inclement weather over these neck of the woods, its a shame that after i'd started working on the aprons at lhr that that path had ceased
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Post by District Dave on Jan 10, 2007 21:43:59 GMT
Oops - meant DC8's!
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