Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Nov 15, 2006 3:57:57 GMT
I could have put this in Signalling, Stations or here on the District Board - I decided here would be best.
The signals WF1 & A681 are the station starters at Fulham Broadway. They both have a small repeater on top of their respective monitors which show yellow when the main aspect is red, and green when the main aspect is green.
So far, so good.
Should a train stop arm be obstructed in the up position, but the signal clears, a dual aspect will be shown on the main signal head.
In this scenario, what will the small repeaters show?
This is not a trick question, I seriously want an answer as it could have a bearing when dealing with SPAD case's. At the moment, it is the belief of certain managers that the indication of the small repeaters should be included in the investigation following a SPAD. It is my belief that they should not, as I suspect they will show green even if the signal head displays a dual aspect and the train stop arm is up.
|
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on Nov 15, 2006 8:05:37 GMT
I've always told my trainees that they should still look at the main aspect, because i've noticed in the past that when there is a dual aspect on the signal (even though it's only been for a second or two), a dual aspect doesn't appear on the monitor's repeater and stays yellow iirc.
Saying that my second point to my trainee is that it is only a repeater and as such should check the main aspect.
I hope that first bit is of use mate.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2006 8:48:47 GMT
On another forum long dead I asked a similar question about the home signals at Rayners Lane, MP22, MP23 and MP24, and how the repeaters associated with them would behave as the signals cleared.
I think there was a thread on this topic in u.t.l. as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2006 11:57:44 GMT
Most signals briefly show a dual aspect ... green when the section ahead is clear, and red until the train stop has lowered. However none of the repeaters show a dual aspect at that moment. However the position is clearly variable in terms of what they do show - some repeaters show green, whilst others still show yellow !
That said one is entitled to act on the display of the repeater, correcting only if there is time when the main aspect is in view. In the case of Fulham Bdy eastbound ...The main aspect is not in view, so one must be entitled to act upon the repeater (though I don't know if it shows yellow or green, whilst the main aspect shows a dual aspect)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2006 14:51:49 GMT
Actually, aetearlscourt stated once that one of the supervisors responsible for Fulham Broadway once asked the S&T dept. of Metronet to add a co-acting aspect to WF1 so that station staff would be able to see the starter more easily than at present.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Nov 15, 2006 15:25:20 GMT
That said one is entitled to act on the display of the repeater, correcting only if there is time when the main aspect is in view. In the case of Fulham Bdy eastbound ...The main aspect is not in view, so one must be entitled to act upon the repeater so you agree with management's view that the small repeater on top of the monitors can be included in a SPAD investigation? |
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on Nov 15, 2006 20:28:31 GMT
Actually, aetearlscourt stated once that one of the supervisors responsible for Fulham Broadway once asked the S&T dept. of Metronet to add a co-acting aspect to WF1 so that station staff would be able to see the starter more easily than at present. To be honest, i've never had any problem with WF1. The problem is the positioning of A681 when the OPO monitors were moved 1 car back. I still crane my neck to view the signal everytime. I really don't like acting on repeaters. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 0:06:19 GMT
so you agree with management's view that the small repeater on top of the monitors can be included in a SPAD investigation? Answers hesitatingly ...I suppose I do ! However with the caveat, that on the e/b at least the monitors are at 90 degrees to the direction of travel, so require an exacting stop with the monitors required to fit in the view from the nearside cab door, this is a zero leeway stop ! a slight bit off and the monitor view is poor and thus a distraction from the LED repeaters which are not well viewed from an angle. The presence of a repeater on the e/b is no substitute for a co-acting red aspect that can actually be seen by the operator. Drivers react far more instantly and autonomously to a red aspect than to a yellow/orange one (there ..bets hedged) None the less I would like to see such repeaters installed in ALL monitors and mirrors, they are such a fantastic idea ...why the hell are they the only examples it's so obvious put a signal where the operator will be looking !!! The three stations where I think a SPAD is truely inevitable, because you can neither see the signal aspect nor any repeater from a normal seating position and the train the normal stopping mark are .... Ealing Common e/b West Kensington e/b and worst of the lot St James's Park e/b (ironic that one is adjacent the main training centre and the worst under head office !!!) And these all (with Fulham Bdy e/b) have destinctions that the trainstop is right by the monitors and a slight overrun at a red aspect will also result in a SPAD ...very poor design ! (added thought ...what the hell do the "Signal Sighting Committee" do ...none of these or the other most poorly sighted running signals seem to get clearly needed attention !) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 1:09:16 GMT
JD29 at Finchley Road n/b suffers from a similar predicament as WB34, WM5 and the St. James Park Starter. However, it has had a co-acting head fitted approximately 6-7 feet off the ground, ostensibly at or near eye level, to mitigate the risk of a SPAD.
J3 at Euston s/b was also fitted with a co-acting aspect; this installation is especially interesting as the co-acting head is behind the blockjoint and in the signal's overlap! WB34 and WM5 would probably receive a similar installation, with WB34 CO-ACTING mounted about seven feet off the ground next to the facing crossover, and WM5 CO-ACTING mounted about six feet off the ground next to the depot junction, on the platform headwall ramp.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Nov 16, 2006 1:14:15 GMT
Ok then, let's take this a stage further...
Hypothetically speaking ( ;D), I will be meeting with the District line performance manager (trains) later today to discuss a second SPAD, which just so happened to be A681, the eastbound station starter at Fulham Broadway.
If it is the general concensus that the small repeater on the monitor is inadequete and not felt to be 100% effective in replacing the main aspect, which is 100% out of view when the train is correctly berthed in the platform, then I will pursue the issue as far as I can.
I do not believe the small repeater is an adequete SPAD mitigation measure. Further more, if it is the case that the repeater can show green with the train stop raised, for whatever reason, I do not see how it can be relied upon as a SPAD mitigation measure.
The cause of the 'hypothetical' SPAD was distraction - so the repeater was not immediately attributable to the SPAD, but if a better provision of A681's aspect were present, could the SPAD have been prevented?
Hmmmm..........am I 'barking up the wrong tree'?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 11:42:55 GMT
I would say that in a "hypothetical" example of anyone having a SPAD at Fulham Broadway e/b they clearly must raise the fact that the signal head is absurdly placed and the Red aspect is not visible, even if you crane your head at that one, it's still hard to get a view of it.
As a driver you stop at a Red aspect, not a yellow repeater !
Had a red aspect been clearly illuminated in the drivers line of normal vision when motoring from a station it would have been seen and a SPAD not occured.
If they wanted the three small LED's to be treated as a stop signal rather than a guide, they should be larger / more of them (as per LED signals at Gloucester Road e/b and Monument w/b) and they should display a red aspect not a yellow one.
My view is the point is at the least arguable (in any hypothetical discussion).
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Nov 16, 2006 14:09:31 GMT
My view is the point is at the least arguable (in any hypothetical discussion). At least my concerns appear valid then - I'll see how it goes  ;D |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2006 16:34:16 GMT
you are right if the trainstop fails in the up position then you would get a dual aspect we do not know how these led type repeaters on the monitors are wired up as there is no reference in the print to them but when i next go to fulham broadway just for my own curosity i will test it and see what the actual led does when you have a dual aspect
|
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on Nov 16, 2006 19:14:39 GMT
Regarding Ealing Common eastbound. I wound up against it 7 1/2 years ago.  I proved just how easy it was. A co-acting head for this signal has now been installed and has much improved visibilty, but as you say the easiest ones to see are the ones right in line with the monitors. St.James's e/b is a nasty piece of work too. I'm really surprised that hasn't had more incidents on it. |
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Nov 17, 2006 1:30:12 GMT
when i next go to fulham broadway just for my own curosity i will test it and see what the actual led does when you have a dual aspect I'd be interested to hear the results - thanks Pat The meeting was cancelled, so any further info I can gain before the meeting is re-scheduled (I won't say where it came from ;D ;D) will be of great assistance. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2006 19:46:59 GMT
Well following this thread ....
I was rather bemused to find, as observed by Trainop78, that a co-acting signal has been installed at Ealing Common e/b (I don't do Ealing's very often).
Admittedly I stopped about 30cm past the stopping mark, however I could see neither the Signal NOR the co-acting !! That said with a correct stop the edge of the co-acting may have just been visible .....given it's been fitted one has to wonder why it wasn't put a bit more in line of sight !!!
10/10 for effort, but only 4/10 for application !!!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2006 8:03:33 GMT
i have checked the prints for these two signals and the wiring of the led repeaters in the monitors is not included so when they are due to be maintained in a couple of weeks i will go and have a play with the trainstops
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Nov 24, 2006 22:50:44 GMT
As I said Pat, I am looking forward to hearing the results of your "play" . I'm booked to see the 'big boss' on my birthday, of all days, 11th December ;D ;D |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2006 0:51:06 GMT
BUMP.
Did aetearlscourt ever discover what the LEDs do when a dual aspect is shown on the signal? And did COLIN ever follow through on that hypothetical query about A681?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2006 2:16:32 GMT
there is nothing i can find in the prints (hopefully they are up to date) about these LED's and i havent been down there to have a little play as the maintenance is not due in that area yet but when i do i will let you lot know the results
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Dec 23, 2006 3:27:10 GMT
Ah yes that reminds me  ;D ;D ;D ;D I received a text message from trainopd78 the other day - he confirms that if a dual aspect is shown, you will get green only on the LED's (in this case it was A681). I also raised the point with the performance manager that had I seen a proper red aspect and not three tiny yellow LED's, it may have possibly prevented the SPAD from occurring in the first place - obviously that can never be proven, but he accepted it was 'fair comment'. I'm told [by the performance manager] that A681 is being 'looked at', with a view to re-positioning it - 'they' may even provide a co-actor. Trouble is, as usual, cost and bureaucracy are factors. I'll give 'em six months, then make enquiries if nothing happens - if need be, there are confidential safety reporting systems in place to take advantage of |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2006 17:18:25 GMT
we have heard that WF1 is to re-positioned at some point in the near future dont hold your breath though this is because of station staff cannot see the signal and have been complaining for a fair while
|
|
|
|
Post by District Dave on Jan 4, 2007 20:18:24 GMT
Well following this thread .... I was rather bemused to find, as observed by Trainop78, that a co-acting signal has been installed at Ealing Common e/b (I don't do Ealing's very often). Admittedly I stopped about 30cm past the stopping mark, however I could see neither the Signal NOR the co-acting !! That said with a correct stop the edge of the co-acting may have just been visible .....given it's been fitted one has to wonder why it wasn't put a bit more in line of sight !!! 10/10 for effort, but only 4/10 for application !!!! Playing catch up - can you tell?  ? I believe that the co-acting on the starter at Ealing Common e/b was actually installed and sighted for the benefit of the Picc t/ops rather than 'us'. Having ridden through the are on Picc trains many times I will concede that their view is truly appaling!! |
|
Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
Posts: 4,196 
|
Post by Tom on Jan 4, 2007 23:04:06 GMT
It's actually sighted to be as good as possible (without affecting the track clearance) for both sets of stock, which led to a compromise which means the sighting isn't great if you miss the stop mark, even by a small amount.
Trainopd78 knows all about this as he was asked to comment on it before it was finally positioned.
It's sighting for 73 stock isn't fantastic, as the picc driver had a SPAD at it the other week will probably agree.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 5:08:19 GMT
Surely a repeater in the monitor box would have been better than a co-actor. This is where the driver's attention is when berthed in a platform.
|
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Jan 5, 2007 22:13:30 GMT
I don't think yellow repeaters are acceptable at station starters - especially if you are relying on it to stop you from spadding......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2007 23:38:15 GMT
I don't think yellow repeaters are acceptable at station starters - especially if you are relying on it to stop you from spadding...... There are LED type repeaters on many monitors, they seem to do the job. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2007 14:44:34 GMT
I don't think yellow repeaters are acceptable at station starters - especially if you are relying on it to stop you from spadding...... Well there are plenty of examples of them ! Aldgate East w/b is also of note as the yellow repeater is set beyond the signal it repeats and just as well as the actual starter is too close to be visible from the normal berth position. |
|
Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
|
Post by Colin on Jan 6, 2007 15:21:43 GMT
I was referring to my earlier point (though not very well) - to a certain degree, "drivers instinct" means a red signal is far more likely to 'stop you in your tracks' (pardon the pun) than a yellow repeater. As I suggested in reply#20, had I seen a red aspect, would I have spadded A681?
The repeater 'aspect' refers to at Aldgate East W/B is a platform repeater - for station staff (and guards, when we had them). In any case, the actual view of the station starter at Aldgate East W/B is perfectly fine. My objection is when a yellow repeater is used to replace a signal aspect which is completely out of view even though the train is berthed correctly.
|
|
|
|
Post by trainopd78 on Jan 7, 2007 16:35:35 GMT
I would never use that repeater at Aldgate East for one big reason. If the bulb blew in the junction box, you would go trundling round to Liverpool St. I always prefer to go on the instruction of a starter, even if it is a pain to observe. Where's my halo? ;D |
|
;D
I proved just how easy it was. 
;D ;D ;D ;D
