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Post by citysig on Mar 15, 2009 13:17:29 GMT
I cannot recall where I heard it, but I have heard that LU are about to commence "trials" of re-introducing bins in certain locations.
Basically, although they have been "used" in the past, so have a lot of things. Our most recent attacks involved using people rather than fixed objects. So I think the company is now looking more realistically that, whilst bins could be a place to conceal a device, the current "trend" is to use different tactics.
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Post by pakenhamtrain on Mar 15, 2009 14:12:29 GMT
Why not have the clear plastic ones we have on our platforms? We have ones for recycling an for rubbish. It isn't as bad as it sounds even though you can see the contents of what's inside. (Not that is stops people from leaving the train a mess).
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 15, 2009 18:06:33 GMT
I cannot recall where I heard it, but I have heard that LU are about to commence "trials" of re-introducing bins in certain locations. Basically, although they have been "used" in the past, so have a lot of things. Our most recent attacks involved using people rather than fixed objects. So I think the company is now looking more realistically that, whilst bins could be a place to conceal a device, the current "trend" is to use different tactics. Interesting - I'm sure I've been hearing this for at least five years now, but we'll see.... Why not have the clear plastic ones we have on our platforms? As I said on the previous page of this very thread: having clear bags at open section stations is something that I don't think LU are entirely comfortable with, but it's a start. So we do already have clear bags, at open section stations.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 15, 2009 18:10:31 GMT
The IRA were the reason for the removal of bins - the climate even today means that LU is quite rightly extremely reluctant to re-introduce them....having clear bags at open section stations is something that I don't think LU are entirely comfortable with, but it's a start. I can imagine the scene now. A terrorist wishes to place a bomb; goes onto a station; and finds that the bins have been removed. Of course, his plan is entirely scuppered without the bin, he admits defeat, surrenders to the authorities and all is well. ... or he just finds somewhere else to plant his bomb... By making so many changes and restrictions on our day to day lives, the Government et al are doing all the terrorists dirty work for them - restricting our freedoms, removing our litterbins - in effect, letting them win?
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Post by singaporesam on Mar 15, 2009 23:08:57 GMT
I can imagine the scene now. A terrorist wishes to place a bomb; goes onto a station; and finds that the bins have been removed. Of course, his plan is entirely scuppered without the bin, he admits defeat, surrenders to the authorities and all is well. Well of course the alternative is that he wanders into the station finds the easy hiding place of a litter bin , and detonates a bomb that kills one and injures about 50 others and causes countless false alarms and mainline station closures over the following weeks. Fortunately I was at the front of my train that day in February 1991 as I as traveling with my sister (when i traveled alone I would sit two carriages from the rear as this is statistically much safer), at the time the Bomb went off I had just boarded a Westbound District, I only found out about it when I got to Ealing. Some of the people at the back of our train were caught in the blast. Don´t you remember what 1990 - 1991 was like ?
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Post by amershamsi on Mar 15, 2009 23:54:59 GMT
was only about two years ago that the LU bin at Amersham (over the non-fare side bridge from the station entrance) was removed, after the clear plastic bags were brought in. I have no idea why TfL/Metronet removed the bin, though I think it was a case of not replacing it (or them finally finding it).
Anyway, it cannot be said that bins were ever all removed from the network - that one, very hidden, bin undoes it all.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 16, 2009 5:56:14 GMT
By making so many changes and restrictions on our day to day lives, the Government et al are doing all the terrorists dirty work for them - restricting our freedoms, removing our litterbins - in effect, letting them win? On the other hand, they could have left the rubbish bins in place and allowed the situation to continue where people were in serious danger of not making it past one. There is a difference between sticking two fingers up to terrorists and staying safe by making it harder for them to carry out their activities Don´t you remember what 1990 - 1991 was like ? This is half the trouble 'singaporesam', we are talking at least 15 years ago - most teenagers wouldn't know about the threat posed by the humble rubbish bin. EDIT: this is quite a thread drift!
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Post by johnb on Mar 16, 2009 14:15:13 GMT
Well of course the alternative is that he wanders into the station finds the easy hiding place of a litter bin , and detonates a bomb that kills one and injures about 50 others and causes countless false alarms and mainline station closures over the following weeks. Fortunately I was at the front of my train that day in February 1991 as I as traveling with my sister (when i traveled alone I would sit two carriages from the rear as this is statistically much safer), at the time the Bomb went off I had just boarded a Westbound District, I only found out about it when I got to Ealing. Some of the people at the back of our train were caught in the blast. Don´t you remember what 1990 - 1991 was like ? Yes. I also remember what 2005 was like. Arresting the terrorists before they get the chance to plant bombs actually works; removing litter bins so that they simply put bombs somewhere else doesn't.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 16, 2009 17:11:44 GMT
Colin, youre right. People about my age don't remember what it was like, but what does it say about the state of security in this country if it hasn't improved in 20-30 years enough to allow rubbish bins in stations? The 'troubles' are over; the enemy has changed. The bins just outside stations entrances emptied by the council remain, however.
How many bombs that were specifically in bins on the system detonated in the past 30 years? And thats a genuine question, because the steriotypical story seems to be that it involved planted luggage.
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Post by citysig on Mar 16, 2009 21:01:07 GMT
EDIT: this is quite a thread drift! I can make it worse - but not on purpose, it's something I remembered ;D In a strange twist of fate, on my national rail line, all of the bins (well a large proportion of them) were sent and stored in a disused waiting room on Potters Bar station. This waiting room (and most of the bins) were destroyed in the tragic rail crash there. As for how many bins have been used, it was (if I recall) only the bomb at Victoria (?) that "noticeably / boldly" utilised a bin? Bins "may" have been used at other locations, but this one seems to stick out as the one that the news reported as being "placed in a bin." It's a bit like the bombs found under the seats of our trains which lead to the seat tags being introduced. Understand I'm not being complacent or negative towards our security measures, but sometimes there has to come a time when some of the measures could be "relaxed" ever so slightly without infringing on security.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 16, 2009 21:17:58 GMT
Many (BR) staff actually encourage you to drop litter - "there's no bins, just leave it lying around and it'll get uplifted by the cleaner". Which is, obviously, not a good attitude in terms of station appearance - not to mention that you could probably still stick something untoward in a large McDonalds bag or suchlike.
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Post by singaporesam on Mar 16, 2009 23:30:41 GMT
Every body remembers 7/7/ 2005 because it was recent and it therefore causes the focus on suicide bombers that nothing other than better intelligence can do anything to prevent, but that´s one attack in the space of the last 4 years. The early 90´s there were a lot of different types of attack allover the place, as I recall there were incendaries under seats , bomb in litter bins , a luggage rack incendary on BR, trackside bombs, pub bombs, bus bombs, and big ones in the city and docklands.
Nearly every day there was a security alert at a main line station. People should worry about what a mess the country will be in if we ever see a return to a sustained co-ordinated series of terrorist attacks.
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Post by suncloud on Mar 17, 2009 1:18:23 GMT
And not to mention telephone threats were fairly common, removing bins helps reduce the number of places to search in response to a threat made, and traditional bins would probably be pretty hard to check without disturbing potential devices.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 20:01:27 GMT
In the days before there were announcements/DMIs on trains, I used to rely on the wheel noise entering Paddington (Bakerloo) NB to tell me it was time to get off!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 0:45:41 GMT
Bluetooth is the answer. Install bluetooth devices in the stations that offers the ability to download the days paper to read on their phones or PDA's or whatever.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 1, 2009 9:55:45 GMT
I wouldn't have thought it too difficult to set-up a system where passengers who need/want lots of information on their journeys to be able to get it via their radio/phone/mp3 player/bluetooth. Maybe even an inductive loop for the hard of hearing. Select channel 1 for basic information or channel 2 for extended information.
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