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Post by maxtube on Mar 8, 2009 18:33:38 GMT
Unfortunately, I saw today on my way to Acton that the faithful and reliable lightboxes at Acton Town have been replaced by pieces of rubbish they found in a skip DMIs. They only display 'Piccadilly Line Eastbound' or whatever, so you must read the destination on the front of the train.
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Post by upfast on Mar 8, 2009 18:55:09 GMT
Unfortunately, I saw today on my way to Acton that the faithful and reliable lightboxes at Acton Town have been replaced by pieces of rubbish they found in a skip DMIs. They only display 'Piccadilly Line Eastbound' or whatever, so you must read the destination on the front of the train. Only until the trains come into the platform. Like at many other places, the current signalling equipment won't show approaching trains for about 18-24 months. Someone did gain mild amusement by playing all the possible eastbound destinations the other day and listening to the automatic voice announcing them!
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 8, 2009 21:21:17 GMT
Someone did gain mild amusement by playing all the possible eastbound destinations the other day and listening to the automatic voice announcing them! Which would probably cause great confusion amongst the passengers, if they trusted the system to listen. Today it was busily chattering on about the next train being for Arnos, whilst an assistant was equally busy announcing that it was empty and off service. I asked said assistant why it was still being announced as in service, "oh we have to have it on and can't change it". Use the off switch!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 9, 2009 0:08:07 GMT
I was told by a friend of mine on stations that they have to play the announcements as part of customer service. It goes to an ambience score or something, they get in trouble by mystery shoppers if its not every x seconds.
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Post by upfast on Mar 9, 2009 4:19:49 GMT
Someone did gain mild amusement by playing all the possible eastbound destinations the other day and listening to the automatic voice announcing them! Which would probably cause great confusion amongst the passengers, if they trusted the system to listen. Today it was busily chattering on about the next train being for Arnos, whilst an assistant was equally busy announcing that it was empty and off service. I asked said assistant why it was still being announced as in service, "oh we have to have it on and can't change it". Use the off switch! The next train was a few minutes away and was done for the benefit of finding out when it would announce the destination. Station staff are not allowed to turn the voice off without permission. They may not even be allowed to do it themselves!
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 9, 2009 8:12:18 GMT
Station staff are not allowed to turn the voice off without permission. They may not even be allowed to do it themselves! I thought that equipment such as DMIs, auto announcers etc are supposed to be turned off if they are giving incorrect information. It is stupid for an auto announcer to be blaring rubbish out and some assistant making more announcements to tell everyone something entirely different. Switch the auto announcer OFF, to avoid confusion, and THEN make said announcements - surely?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2009 9:36:28 GMT
I thought that equipment such as DMIs, auto announcers etc are supposed to be turned off if they are giving incorrect information. If they are *consistently* giving incorrect information, then yes. If it's one train, then no, it's probably not going to happen: trains get reformed or taken out of service early and the DMI's do not always keep up in this situation. I'm not sure what the setup is like at Acton; at Bounds Green on the westbound while I was a CSA I could interrupt the auto announcements with my RPA by holding the button down to transmit, although obviously that doesn't affect the actual display.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2009 10:04:10 GMT
Someone did gain mild amusement by playing all the possible eastbound destinations the other day and listening to the automatic voice announcing them! Which would probably cause great confusion amongst the passengers, if they trusted the system to listen. Today it was busily chattering on about the next train being for Arnos, whilst an assistant was equally busy announcing that it was empty and off service. I asked said assistant why it was still being announced as in service, "oh we have to have it on and can't change it". Use the off switch! So the auto announcer said the train was going to Arnos Grove and the staff member announced it was was out of service. Surely not beyond the realms to appreciate that the train was in fact out of service.
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Post by memorex on Mar 9, 2009 11:54:02 GMT
undergroundgal: All the RPA's I have used, (Baker Street, Leicester Square and Kings Cross), the automated announcements cut over the RPA.. which is annoying when your half way through an annoucnement during service disruption and you get a service update... So maybe thats been changed or Bounds Green is different, dunno! Tomcakes: From seeing things in the control room at Kings Cross, its the Control Room Assistant who can turn off the announcements. I am unsure if Acton has a control room, if not it would be the supervisor, who would probably be more hesitant to turn it off than the CSA on the platform. Having been on the platform before during service disruption, making custom PA's, it is annoying when the auto-announcer kicks in, particularly when it gives the incorrect information, but I do find it easier, if I come across a problem, to use the fixed PA point to give out a message, as opposed to getting the auto-announcements turned off, and therefore having to carry out full SAT's duties, (basically have someone assigned to the platform), to keep the mystery shoppers happy.
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Post by maxtube on Mar 9, 2009 15:45:59 GMT
When waiting for the train home, the auto announcer said: 'The train now approaching platform x is all stations to High Street Kensington.' Five minutes later, it arrived. It can't have taken that long to arrive in the station...
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Post by upfast on Mar 9, 2009 18:22:11 GMT
Which would probably cause great confusion amongst the passengers, if they trusted the system to listen. Today it was busily chattering on about the next train being for Arnos, whilst an assistant was equally busy announcing that it was empty and off service. I asked said assistant why it was still being announced as in service, "oh we have to have it on and can't change it". Use the off switch! So the auto announcer said the train was going to Arnos Grove and the staff member announced it was was out of service. Surely not beyond the realms to appreciate that the train was in fact out of service. If the train was running empty to Arnos Grove, then it would have Train Description and would show a destination on the DMIs. This is the case on the line (except in the Heathrow and Hounslow areas). The new system announces and shows the destination when the TD arrives in the plaform, so when the home signals are cleared. It can be set up manually beforehand by the Service Operator. However, if a train is in the platform and the TD is changed, it shows on the DMI, but is not announced.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2009 18:32:27 GMT
So the auto-announcer is right a good % of the time - unless a train is short tripped at late notice OR goes defective at short notice.
A bit like the DMI's on the Circle Line that try and predict when the next Circle Line train will be - even during the weekend closures of the Circle Line.
I think it comes down to what we prefer, no system will ever be 100% correct, so should we be providing information that isn't 100% correct? Or is it best to say nothing and then you're never wrong ;D
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Post by Chris M on Mar 10, 2009 17:41:35 GMT
I think the point is that when you know the information being provided is wrong you shouldn't be providing it. So for example if station staff know that the auto announcer is wrong about the approaching train they should turn it off if they can't change it. They should not have to correct it by making manual announcement telling passengers to ignore it.
If the station staff don't know the auto-announcer is wrong then you can't blame them for not turning it off.
What is inexcusable (imho) is what I heard at one station on the Hammersmith branch (maybe Shepherd's Bush) which was two recorded announcements giving contradictory information repeatedly - iirc they agreed there were engineering works on the Picc, but one had hit that there were severe delays on the Circle and minor delays on the H&C while the other was saying there was a good service on all other lines. I heard both about 4 times while waiting for my eastbound train. Station staff should have stopped the incorrect one playing.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 10, 2009 18:30:37 GMT
I think the point is that when you know the information being provided is wrong you shouldn't be providing it. So for example if station staff know that the auto announcer is wrong about the approaching train they should turn it off if they can't change it. They should not have to correct it by making manual announcement telling passengers to ignore it. If the station staff don't know the auto-announcer is wrong then you can't blame them for not turning it off. I agree. I would presume, when a train is turning short of its booked destination AND the signalman knows that the system is likely to be confused, a message would be given to the stations. Thus the station would know when to turn the announcer off. Or, better still, turn it off full stop.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 9:06:53 GMT
But as was said before - the system can't be simply switched off. Surely a simply announcement from the station staff - which is what happened - would be enough.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 11, 2009 10:04:14 GMT
In which case, I would say the system is badly designed. Those designing it should have known that there would be occasions where it would need to be overridden (hell, it doesn't even take LU knowledge to work it out) and included such an override.
It might clarify things (but could also be confusing if a passenger isn't sure who to believe), but it sounds naff and unprofessional.
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Post by memorex on Mar 11, 2009 10:54:50 GMT
In which case, I would say the system is badly designed. Those designing it should have known that there would be occasions where it would need to be overridden (hell, it doesn't even take LU knowledge to work it out) and included such an override. In a discussion I had at Baker Street last week, it was described how the service controllers, fight with the computers during disruption. I.e., the computer is loaded with a timetable and tries to follow that timetable. All signallers can do is hold it, to stop it from setting the route, set another route, to stop the first route from being set by the computer. It was said that, when it was designed, it was seen as a fully automated system, that nothing would ever go wrong with it, and it would never need assistance, so an over-ride was never built into it. Yes it is short sighted, and yes it is not true, but those who design such things think their design is so wonderful, it would never go wrong. So we have to live with what we get I suppose!!
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Post by maxtube on Mar 11, 2009 17:39:37 GMT
I can think of one reason that they decided to replace them - The lightboxes only displayed 'Heathrow', and did not indicate if the train was Terminal 4 or 5.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 11, 2009 19:31:37 GMT
The DMi at Hammersmith WB has the same problem!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2009 19:48:29 GMT
Thankfully, there are audible announcements to tell you where trains are going, otherwise could you imagine the chaos?
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 13, 2009 19:53:09 GMT
Thankfully, there are audible announcements to tell you where trains are going, otherwise could you imagine the chaos? Yes, I mean having to look at the destination blind, what a strife.
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Post by maxtube on Mar 13, 2009 20:51:22 GMT
Thankfully, there are audible announcements to tell you where trains are going, otherwise could you imagine the chaos? Yes, I mean having to look at the destination blind, what a strife. Especially with the changeover from blinds to digital displays making this harder, especially with the illegible ones on the Piccadilly!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 18:57:34 GMT
Thankfully, there are audible announcements to tell you where trains are going, otherwise could you imagine the chaos? Yes, I mean having to look at the destination blind, what a strife. You are, of course, jumping to the conclusion that everybody can actually see the destination blind. In 2008, 153,000 people were on the register of blind people and a similar number of the register of partially sighted people. (no doubt countless more have eye sight problems).
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Post by Chris M on Mar 15, 2009 1:23:28 GMT
I do not have eyesight problems, but even I could often only tell what a Central Line train's destination blind says by the length. And that is when you are on the correct part of a platform to see the front of the train, and the platform is not too crowded for you to see the front of the train, etc. Oh and that the destination blind is set correctly - the last time I went to Olympia the refrub D stock's destination was stuck showing High Street Kensington. While looking at the destination blind on a bus might be acceptable for well-sighted people, but trains are a different kettle of fish (and no, the iBus system that only tells you the destination after the doors have closed and the bus is underway again is nor an example of how things should be done)
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Post by Ben on Mar 15, 2009 14:21:54 GMT
By their nature the words on DMIs are the majority of the time too small. Use of minuscules aggrovates the situation. If London Buses are forces to have canvas blinds, so should Londons trains. Someone should write a scathing paper on the subject and submit it to information design industry heads.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 15, 2009 15:01:40 GMT
On the London's Transport email list currently there is quite a heated debate about the merits of LED vs canvas blinds on buses. The consensus seems to be that modern LED blinds, when they are large enough, are better than canvas blinds in almost all situations.
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Post by upfast on Mar 15, 2009 16:55:26 GMT
On the London's Transport email list currently there is quite a heated debate about the merits of LED vs canvas blinds on buses. The consensus seems to be that modern LED blinds, when they are large enough, are better than canvas blinds in almost all situations. I agree with this. Especially as a LED blind can display the destination, then the via points. Where I live, some bus types have LED and these are miles better than canvas blinds.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 15, 2009 17:30:02 GMT
It depends how they are done and if they're done properly. Most bus companies use LEDs, but many do it badly - i.e. have the destination and then a few screens about how much their day ticket, weekly ticket etc is. Or have the via points in exactly the same (tiny) text size as the ultimate. A full set of properly-screened blinds is far better, IMO.
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Post by North End on Mar 15, 2009 17:35:13 GMT
It depends how they are done and if they're done properly. Most bus companies use LEDs, but do it badly - i.e. have the destination and then a few screens about how much their day ticket, weekly ticket etc is. Or have the via points in exactly the same (tiny) text size as the ultimate. Try telling me the LCD (?) destination display on the 95 stock is clearer than the blinds of the 59/72 stocks - in sunlight they're very hard to read, and in the tunnel the backlight often causes them to appear blurred. On the merit side they do have the advantage of being able to show a greater range of destinations, and are less susceptible to tunnel dust.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 16, 2009 0:00:11 GMT
Tomcakes and BRB you are both saying that a poorly done and/or too small LED display is inferior to a well-done blind display, and I completely agree with you. My view is that a well-done and sufficiently large LED display is better than an equally well done blind, a view which seems shared by most commenters on the email list. Although one person is apparently of the belief that even a poorly done blind is far better than even the best LED display.
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