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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 20:55:08 GMT
Was thinking about different lines, and the options available for turning trains short, re-routeing etc. I know the Northern has the choice of routes through central London, but the Central's list is impressive.
West Ruislip (2 platforms) plus one parallel road for shunting.
Rusilip Gardens (terminate then into depot)
Northolt (reversing siding west of station accesible from both roads plus trailing crossover east of station - trains can shunt east to west, or reverse west to east in westbound platform)
Ealing Broadway - two platform terminus with access to District line via link.
North Acton - bi-directional middle platform can reverse trains from both directions, or be used as a through road in both directions. Also possible to shunt west to east via crossover west of station.
White Ciry - bidirectional middle platform, siding at west end of station can be accessed from all platforms. White City depot can be accessed from all platforms.
Queensway - facing crossover east of station. Can be used to shunt east to west, or to enable westbound trains to run into eastbound platform to reverse.
Marble Arch - reversing siding west of station, accessible from both roads.
Holborn - reversing siding west of station (at British Museum disused station). Accessible from both roads. Also, back shunt possible from British Museum disused station. Train runs empty from Tottenham Court Road to do this move.
Liverpool Street. Two reversing sidings east of station accessible from both roads. Also, trailing crossover west of station can be used for west to east shunt, or reversing train east to west in eastbound platform.
Bethnal Green - trailing crossover west of station can be used for west to east shunt, or reversing train east to west in eastbound platform.
Leytonstone - trains can reverse west to east via loop west of station, can be accessed from both westbound roads. Trains can be reversed east to west in platform 3 and 2. Trains can be reversed west to east in platforms 1 and 2, but can only return onto the Epping branch. Trains can shunt east to west via crossover east of station. Trains bound for the Epping branch can go through the station via platform 3 or 2, but can only access the Hainault line from platform 3 (a rare bit of inflexibility!). Westbound trains from platform 2 run via the main line, but westbound trains from platform 1 can run via the loop, or via a crossover onto the main line. The main line and loop merge about a quarter of a mile before Leyton station.
Newbury Park - trains can run inner rail via main line or loop, or stable in loop and return outer rail. Trains can reverse outer to inner rail via outer rail platform and loop.
Hainault. Train can access depot (west end) from all 3 platforms, and can reverse inner to outer rail via all 3 platforms. Trains can reverse outer rail to inner rail via platforms 1 and 2. Trains can run through the station in both directions via platforms 1 and 2.
Grange Hill - access to Hainault depot (east end) from both platforms.
South Woodford - train can run direct to Woodford sidings via loop at Woodford.
Woodford - trains can reverse east to west via all platforms, or via shunt east of station. Trains can reverse west to east via platform 2, or shunt west of station via loop or main line. Westbound trains can ran via mainline or loop.
Loughton - access to sidings from all three roads. Trains can reverse east to west via eastbound road and middle road. Train can run through the station in both directions via middle road. Trains can reverse west to wast by using middle road.
Debden - trains can run eastbound via main line or loop, or stable in loop and return westbound. Trains can reverse westto east via westbound platform and loop.
Epping - two platform terminus.
Trains can also run to Hainault via Newbury Park or Woodford.
Train can run all around the Hainault loop in either direction and return to Central London.
In times of disruption when the direct line from Leytonstone to Woodford is closed, trains can get to the Epping branch by running via Hainault, then reversing in platform 2 at Woodford.
Hainault depot can be reached by two different routes.
Can any other line boast such a list?
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Post by DrOne on Jan 20, 2009 21:40:47 GMT
That is quite a list! The Picc could do with a bit of that  |
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Post by upfast on Jan 20, 2009 21:46:28 GMT
I was actually thinking that the Picc could be a contender.
Thinking about the ease of such reversing moves and the way things are timetabled and the ability to send trains to different places. The District could also do well there too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2009 21:51:11 GMT
I think the Northern and Met lines are just as flexible.
The Northern has two routes through the central section, umpteen reversing points, every terminus with the exception of Mill Hill East has three patforms and Kennington has excelent reversing facilities with the loop and siding.
The Met has the four tracking for much of it's length.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 21:52:47 GMT
That is quite a list! The Picc could do with a bit of that The Picc situation isn't helped by the presence of only two crew depots - Acton Town and Arnos Grove. The Central has 5 - Hainault, Loughton, Leytonstone, White City and West Ruislip. Surely, getting the Picc some more crew depots is long overdue. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 20, 2009 21:54:50 GMT
Surely the Picc would be one of the least flexible as, past Down Street into central london, it has nowhere near such a plethora of options. Remember the huge section of line taken out by 7/7.
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Post by upfast on Jan 20, 2009 21:57:16 GMT
Surely the Picc would be one of the least flexible as, past Down Street into central london, it has nowhere near such a plethora of options. Remember the huge section of line taken out by 7/7. If only the east end of the line was as flexible as the west! |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 21:58:21 GMT
Surely the Picc would be one of the least flexible as, past Down Street into central london, it has nowhere near such a plethora of options. Remember the huge section of line taken out by 7/7. It's the east end of the Picc that is the problem, but yes, there are limited options in the centre too. They were talking about reinstating the crossover at Covent Garden. There is also a big gap between Northfields and Heathrow. Reversing at Hounslow Central and Hatton Cross delays the service. |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 22:06:08 GMT
I think the Northern and Met lines are just as flexible. The Northern has two routes through the central section, umpteen reversing points, every terminus with the exception of Mill Hill East has three patforms and Kennington has excelent reversing facilities with the loop and siding. The Met has the four tracking for much of it's length. The Northern isn't bad actually, but it would be nice to be able to reverse easily north to south at Kennington - is this move available via a back shunt into the siding. I know it isn't possible to run backwards round the loop. The central area reversing points are all crossovers (apart from the Euston loop), so not as flexible as the Central line's sidings at Marbe Arch, Holborn and Liverpool Street. Golders Green is flexible - but East Finchley and Finchley Central aren't as flexible as they could be. East Finchley would be better if trains from the main line could access the reversing siding. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 20, 2009 22:11:51 GMT
Bakerloo is pretty lacking aswell; IIRC there was a discussion on the numerous disused crossovers.
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 20, 2009 22:28:55 GMT
On the Jubilee, you can't reverse north to south anywhere between Waterloo and West Hampstead (or can they at Finchley Road). When the C and D stock has been replaced, the subsurface lines should be very flexible (I'm counting the Met as seperate because it will still use different length trains), and the District is quite flexible at the moment.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 22:42:16 GMT
On the Jubilee, you can't reverse north to south anywhere between Waterloo and West Hampstead (or can they at Finchley Road). When the C and D stock has been replaced, the subsurface lines should be very flexible (I'm counting the Met as seperate because it will still use different length trains), and the District is quite flexible at the moment. I think north to south is possible at Finchley Road - main line shunt north of station, although by that point you're nearly at West Hampstead anyway! The District would be more flexible if Tower Hill and Mansion House bay platform were made bi-direcitonal through roads. The proposed reversing siding at West Ham will be a good idea too. However, there are few west to east reversing points after Whitechapel that can be used without delaying the service somewhat. Embankment is a trailing crossover. What you need are places to put trains out of the way, so they are not delaying the service. Aldgate East is also a trailing, but is only one stop further than Whitechapel anyway. |
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 20, 2009 22:58:30 GMT
I thought the West Ham reversing siding would only be put in if Whitechapel is rebuilt, and the District would become less flexible if they rebuild Whitechapel (I think that it could be rebuilt with three tracks, and two island platforms). Would it be possible to make the bays at Mansion House and Tower Hill into through platforms?
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 23:06:03 GMT
I thought the West Ham reversing siding would only be put in if Whitechapel is rebuilt, and the District would become less flexible if they rebuild Whitechapel (I think that it could be rebuilt with three tracks, and two island platforms). Would it be possible to make the bays at Mansion House and Tower Hill into through platforms? Rebuilding Whitechapel will actually improve flexibility - the station is not as flexible as it may appear at the moment. Trains currently terminating there from the west delay the eastbound service when they return back west, due to the fact the two roads join up before the crossover. The opposite is due for trains terminating in the other direction. If they rebuild it, a train could terminate in a middle platform, and not delay the through service when it returns the other way. West Ham siding should be built anyway - it will cause less delays than reversing trains at Plaistow. I think the bay roads at Tower Hill and Mansion House could be extended without too much major work. |
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 20, 2009 23:07:39 GMT
I thought that the plan was to rebuild Whitechapel with only two platforms, and not reverse trains there.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 23:08:50 GMT
I thought that the plan was to rebuild Whitechapel with only two platforms, and not reverse trains there. I thought it was 3 platforms, but you may be right!  |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 20, 2009 23:11:03 GMT
Whitechapels plain lining is part of the Crossrail scheme, so presumably it will go ahead. At the time of its rebuild to its current state, Whitchapels layout was considered the paramount in flexibility. There was a book in my uni library from the 20s describing it. A true loss to the system.
There was, however, room for a fifth track at the site of the old Aldgate East Station...
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 20, 2009 23:11:36 GMT
I think it was two platforms because if it was three, H&C trains could still reverse at Whitechapel, and I think the plan was for all H&C trains to go to West Ham or Barking.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 20, 2009 23:13:06 GMT
The plan is for a giant island platform IIRC.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 23:14:31 GMT
Maybe I should read up a bit more on crossrail. If there is room for a giant island platform, then surely there is room for a centre road?
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 20, 2009 23:17:22 GMT
I don't see why they want to rebuild Whitechapel with a 'giant island', as there should be enough room for two islands and three tracks, as at the moment there are four platforms (two islands), and a siding.
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Post by Harsig on Jan 20, 2009 23:18:28 GMT
Maybe I should read up a bit more on crossrail. If there is room for a giant island platform, then surely there is room for a centre road? My understanding is that the whole rationale behind providing one large island platform was so that escalators could be installed from the District platforms to the depths of the crossrail platforms and these would necessarily be in the way of any centre through road. |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 23:20:05 GMT
Maybe I should read up a bit more on crossrail. If there is room for a giant island platform, then surely there is room for a centre road? My understanding is that the whole rationale behind providing one large island platform was so that escalators could be installed from the District platforms to the depths of the crossrail platforms and these would necessarily be in the way of any centre through road. South Kensington all over again - without the escalators! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2009 23:21:48 GMT
Having many terminating points provides a better service in the central area but can leave trains further out busier and passengers in stations that aren't always great to wait around in, thinking of North Acton here.
Wouldn't tipping out passengers at Covent Garden only be possible off-peak? The station would get really overcrowded otherwise. Something at Russell Square might be better.
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Post by astock5000 on Jan 20, 2009 23:23:13 GMT
My understanding is that the whole rationale behind providing one large island platform was so that escalators could be installed from the District platforms to the depths of the crossrail platforms and these would necessarily be in the way of any centre through road. Couldn't they have the escalators go to just under the Distrist platforms, and then stairs to each island? |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 20, 2009 23:33:12 GMT
Having many terminating points provides a better service in the central area but can leave trains further out busier and passengers in stations that aren't always great to wait around in, thinking of North Acton here. Wouldn't tipping out passengers at Covent Garden only be possible off-peak? The station would get really overcrowded otherwise. Something at Russell Square might be better. North Acton reversers are mainly in the peak, every 20 mins or so. The service beyond there is good enough to both the Ealing and Ruislip branches. The west end central line branches are considerably less busy than the east end ones, so more trains terminate short on that side of town. If people don't like waiting around at North Acton, then they shouldn't get on a train that terminates there! With regards to Covent Garden, I think it would only be used when there was a service suspension, not to turn late running trains, as these would block the main service. One idea would be to do a bit of resignalling to enable train to terminate at Holborn on the eastbound, then return "wrong road" (but signalled) towards Covent Garden, then over the crossover to rejoin the westbound line. Holborn is a far better traffic objective. |
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Post by ruislip on Jan 21, 2009 2:21:02 GMT
West Ruislip (2 platforms) plus one parallel road for shunting. Isn't this parallel road also used for access between the aforementioned 2 platforms and Ruislip Depot? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2009 4:51:55 GMT
As for Whitechapel, the reason of why they are getting rid of the two centre tracks is due to the expected number of people meaning the current platforms won't be able to safely cope with the expected numbers coming up from Crossrail. Also I believe the positioning of the escalators means they need to come up near the center of the station because of a need to avoid the ELL platforms.
As a result a new reversing siding will be built between West Ham and Plaistow meaning trains will terimate at West Ham rather than Whitechapel although Im not sure that Plaistow termiating platform will last due to the fact it wont be long enough for S stock. As the reversing siding is being done as a part of Crossrail it may answer the problem of what to do with terimating trains at Plaistow.
There is a drawing of this reversing siding on the Crossrail website. I will have to dig it up tho I have an A3 drawing Crossrail sent to me of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2009 6:04:23 GMT
If people don't like waiting around at North Acton, then they shouldn't get on a train that terminates there! You're expecting too much of the travelling public! It really isn't suited to the purpose, a rebuild similar to White City would have been better but didn't the third platform idea happen during a lull in funding? Thinking about it terminating anywhere with lifts isn't a great idea even in a service suspension. A full train load is going to take ages to get out of the station and would be screwed in an emergency. On London Connections there should be an article on what is planned at Whitechapel. Least that's where I think I read it! It all looked a bit bland from what I remember. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2009 7:57:41 GMT
Having many terminating points provides a better service in the central area but can leave trains further out busier and passengers in stations that aren't always great to wait around in, thinking of North Acton here. Due to the track/platform layout at North Acton, when a train is terminating at North Acton, then passengers who need to travel further than North Acton should be asked to change at White City instead. |
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