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Post by punkman on Feb 26, 2023 8:13:20 GMT
When a train loses its doors closed indication ("pilot light") the train stops motoring but the emergency brake is not applied; it is the driver's responsibility to do that. The external light you see is an indication that a door on that carriage is not fully closed. (I hesitate to say door open, because it would only open at most by a few cm if that and as you state this is most likely a result of someone leaning on doors, or possibly a weak interlock causing a door to momentarily open slightly under braking.) I imagine the discrepancy between scenarios you have seen is simply the driver's reaction time in applying an emergency brake (or not).
Although doors SHOULDN'T open by more than a small amount, I believe it has happened where a door has fully opened whilst a train was in motion, obviously due to some kind of technical fault, so I would always advise passengers not to lean on doors anyway! (I'm not sure whether that was a Jubilee train though.)
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Post by punkman on Oct 9, 2022 8:39:34 GMT
On Monday 19th September, the Jubilee line ran a full compliment of 96TS (bar the 1 that's long term stopped). Does anyone know the last time 96TS were available to such a degree? I'm not disputing that but am surprised given the long-term fleet problems, although I guess (as with the Olympics) all stops were pulled to get as many trains running as possible. (Although as an aside, one must question the rationale for running trains an extra hour later that day; by all accounts they were deadly quiet at that hour.) The word on the street is that cancellations (up to 10 trains a day) will continue into next year as a lack of spare parts is causing problems. Quite what spares these are I don't know. Certainly last time I passed Stratford depot there were a number of "half" units on the outside roads.
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Post by punkman on Apr 21, 2022 8:51:28 GMT
Do any LU employees here have a feeling (or even figures) for the proportion of managers who have 'come up through the ranks' as opposed to been employed from outside the organisation? Without having any definitive answer, apart from, "A lot less than before," the general feeling among the "rank and file workers" is that it's better to have had experience in the industry than not. However this is not always the case, as I can think of more than one example of managers with a totally non railway background who have thrown themselves totally into the job, asking relevant questions and creating an excellent working relationship. On the other hand I think most of us (LUL employee in my case) know cases of "poacher turned gamekeeper;" previously the bane of managers' lives until they get promoted! So, sorry not to answer your question directly.
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Post by punkman on Jan 12, 2022 9:38:08 GMT
Diamond Geezer discussed this map in his daily blog diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/ on the 8th January (and a follow up on the 10th about those covering the Northern Line part closure); suffice to say he wasn't impressed!
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Post by punkman on Nov 11, 2021 8:54:37 GMT
Very much not prescribed, but as well as to avoid keep leaning forward it helps preserve well manicured nails, so I'm told! Apparently a potato masher with the end plate removed does the job. I'm not sure what the official line is regarding their usage is though.
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Post by punkman on Oct 15, 2021 8:32:19 GMT
Given previous comments about the lack of drivers currently causing "shortage of trains," especially on the Central Line and at weekends, this news, while welcome, is bound to cause even more daytime disruption as drivers are moved to cover the Night Tube services. Unless there are already new drivers / cross transfers currently being trained up (unlikely?) I would imagine, as there is an extra payment to do a Night Tube shift, there would probably be enough volunteers, but to the detriment of services during the day. And if there were not enough, presumably "pool" drivers would be forced to cover the shifts?
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Post by punkman on Nov 1, 2020 9:41:40 GMT
Not sure where to post this and / or whether it's been covered before or indeed of relevant interest, so mods please feel free to edit / move / delete as appropriate.
Playing around with Google Earth Pro (not Maps) the other day looking at historical aerial imagery for Stratford Market Depot I found an image of an aircraft (777?) overflying the depot. If you go to the View menu, tick Historical Imagery, go to 9/15/2019 on the sliding scale at the top and you can see it over the temporary fitting out shed. I know this isn't the only aircraft image captured by Google, but it may be of interest.
Clearly nothing better to do with my time..........
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Post by punkman on Oct 21, 2020 8:48:12 GMT
Back on covid, Transport for London have engaged a private healthcare provider for six months of fast return coronavirus tests for it's train drivers. They have tested just under 700 in two months. My understanding is that it's just instructors who volunteered to restart training who get tested. When you say just under 700 I take that as number of tests rather than necessarily 700 different drivers, as several instructors are being tested on a weekly basis?
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Post by punkman on Jul 28, 2020 9:40:10 GMT
To be fair the Jubilee is pretty good in the wet, or at least I've not heard of too many problems. I remember my first experience of ATO was back when involved in testing when it was absolutely chucking it down with rain. The train was probably still doing 35-40 mph as it entered the platform and I was convinced an overshoot was inevitable, but with much noise from the WSP (Wheel slip protection) it stopped bang on the mark.
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Post by punkman on Apr 20, 2020 8:01:55 GMT
The timetable increasing the service levels was meant to come in two weeks ago, on Thursday the lockdown was extended for three weeks. This is nothing to do with being prepared for relaxing the lockdown, this is simply to get money from the government For a strike to be legal it has to have a ballot, Civica Election Services (formerly Electoral Reform Services) have furloughed their staff so there won't be any ballots until after the lockdown is relaxed. Regardless under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 anyone can refuse to work if they are being asked to work in an environment that represents a threat of ‘serious or imminent danger’ to their safety. My post was slightly tongue-in-cheek - but one day, you never know, there may be a return to forward, strategic planning. We live In hope. Although to be fair this WAS mentioned in the notice sent out. I don't have access to it now but there was a paragraph saying something along the lines of needing to be ready for when restrictions start to be lifted.
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Post by punkman on Feb 22, 2020 12:32:22 GMT
The move is still available, but seemingly rarely done although by chance I happened to be on a train that did so the other night! If you look at the Carto map there is a crossover just after the Stratford staff halt where ATO trains can cross over from the east to the westbound and "bang road" into any Stratford platform. More usually the crossover just before the road bridge (shown on the Carto map as just south of Stratford High Street DLR station) is used. In both cases the moves are confined to late at night; as you say after the last westbound, the idea being to facilitate trains using the eastbound road going into the depot from Stratford.
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Post by punkman on Feb 11, 2020 10:42:19 GMT
Under ATO the platform edge door system is linked in so that a train can't move if one or more of the platform doors aren't closed, in a similar way to the pilot light (door closed visual) on the trains themselves. In the case you witnessed yesterday a PED would have somehow opened (even by a tiny amount e.g. by someone leaning on it) or more likely just an indication that it had i.e. an electrical malfunction. This has the effect of shutting down the area (technical term - "closing the track") within the platform so that any trains there or immediately approaching will be emergency braked while those further away will be brought to a smooth standstill until the fault can be rectified. (I'm not sure of the exact range.) This is done by station staff having to isolate that door from the rest to allow the system to restore ("opening the track").
It is a safety feature that a PED should not be open when a train is not properly berthed as, for example, a partially sighted person might assume there WAS a train there if one was open. My understanding of how things worked pre ATO was that it was up to the driver to stop the train if a door opened, having seen a platform door light come on in his or her on-board monitors. It seems now that this sort of thing is becoming more common, with several instances of isolated doors at any one time across the 8 PED stations. I guess at 20 years old things are not as reliable! On the whole PEDs are a good idea, but it does seem a waste of resources every time one fails that a member of station staff has to supervise that door at all times.
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Post by punkman on Oct 21, 2019 11:44:45 GMT
I've not seen this mentioned here, but I've heard that the problem ONLY relates to the "7th cars;" i.e. the Special trailer cars which were added to the fleet around 2005 / 2006.
That would explain why Northern line trains are not affected, but one would also hope that the four complete new trains delivered at the same time would have been thoroughly checked too.
As an aside and a lay person, it certainly seems that ATO puts more of a stress on trains as the Jubilee line is much more "clunky" and nowhere near as smooth as pre ATO!
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Post by punkman on Aug 24, 2019 10:58:43 GMT
As well as the gaps and closely following of trains mentioned above, another cause for jerky movement when leaving stations can be attributed to a temporary loss of pilot light ("door closed visual") in turn causing the motors to drop out when they were applying full power. Maybe someone is trying to remove a trapped coat or bag strap causing the temporary loss.
So much for smooth rides which LUL used to demand; I remember an instructor once told me that he used to tell his trainees he did not want them to spill his tea whilst stopping or accelerating! With ATO that seems to have gone out of the window.
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Post by punkman on Feb 21, 2019 15:05:39 GMT
Just to be pedantic a train is "berthed" in a platform not "docked". The SSR ATC engineers talk about 'docked' to mean the ATC is satisfied the train has stopped within tolerance to open the doors and I think it's used on the Jubilee/Northern system too. So I guess we may need to get used to the term sometimes! And in SSR ATC the 'overshoot mode' is gone. In the overshoot situation described in the first post, both the front and rear cars' doors would stay shut once we have ATC. I was present when some of the TBTC testing was done for the Jubilee line, and some of the engineers referred to "docking;" in fact I think there are "docking loops" in the platform to ensure accurate stops on TBTC equipped trains.
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TT1
Feb 13, 2019 13:07:14 GMT
Post by punkman on Feb 13, 2019 13:07:14 GMT
Train Technician. Most likely being spoken about in the context of the mobile train technician’s which are variously known as train doctors, train maintainers, fitters or car examiners depending where you are on the combine. Interesting the different terminology used across the combine; on the Jubilee as well as Control Room Technician (Train Doctor as explained by commuter ), the mobile fitter is called a Service Support Technician (SST).
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Post by punkman on Nov 21, 2018 10:12:34 GMT
Aren't TFL supposed to be getting away from "Ladies and Gentlemen" (well, officially anyway)?
As an aside at Neasden southbound (Jubilee) they play the "The train approaching......stand away from the platform edge" announcement when the trains has almost fully berthed; I've even heard it at Waterloo despite the platform doors.
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Post by punkman on Oct 11, 2018 12:10:32 GMT
While there might be more trains, one drawback of this new timetable is rush hour (especially in the morning) on the Jubilee line platforms at Stratford (14/15). The platforms become very congested, and for some reason (e.g. this morning) sometimes the first train to leave isn't the first one in - I have seen that the Stanmore train tends to leave first. This morning, there were no trains on the platforms at about 8.45am. Then a train arrived on platform 14 (despite the indicator board showing next train would be from platform 15). The crowd of people migrated over to the train on platform 14. Then the indicator board flashed with an information update, that the next train would be from platform 15. Then, almost as soon as the train arrived on platform 15, it was ready to depart, while people were running back towards it from the opposite train. No system is perfect, and I'd rather have more trains and put up with the congestion, but it can be a bit confusing! With the intensity of the timetable, reversers at three stations as well as Stanmore along with drivers "stepping back" it only takes a little blip in the service for trains to be out of sequence, and I believe the manager in the box tries to restore them in the correct order where possible. I'm not very familiar with the morning rush, but it sounds similar to the evening one, especially with people heading to an event at North Greenwich, in that everyone seems to congregate at the rear of the train, resulting in an undignified scramble when the first train comes in. I have to say I have little faith in the platform indicators (or even the automated "Next platform" announcement) and head towards the front of the platform and get on any train; generally it will leave soon as I'm not too fussed about a few minutes here or there. If only we could educate our fellow travellers that they can use the full length of the train, but then at least I generally get a seat!
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Post by punkman on Jul 27, 2018 14:28:16 GMT
I don't know the specifics of this example but as others have pointed out Green Park reversers do sometimes detrain at other stations. This may on occasions be due to lack of available staff to help detrain, but in yesterday's case I imagine it was due to Green Park being particularly busy, with eastbound passengers from Westminster having to backtrack first and then travel east from Green Park.
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Post by punkman on May 21, 2018 11:04:47 GMT
A bit more about the plungers. They were, to my knowledge, installed when the Jubilee platforms were originally built but not commissioned until ATO in 2010. They were roughly in line wth the arriving train operator's cab but about 3 metres away, and are operated simply by lifting a flap and pressing the plunger. At the time the current crowds could never be envisaged and their loaction would have seemed a sensible option, but with the passenger numbers now (Olympics, Westfield, O2, West Ham FC etc.) it can be nigh on impossible to plunge straight away as T/Ops would have to fight their way across the crowds exiting the train. By all accounts different T/Ops apply different methods; some don't bother (especially if the end of their shift), some wait till the crowds have subsided before emerging from the cab, others may go into the first carriage and get off merging with the crowd to drift cross the flow and there's even those who will scurry across BEFORE opening the doors! In the latter case, as has been stated, they shouldn't and rather defeats the object.
At the other end I think it would be true to say most T/Ops just board their train and don't necessarily always notice the RCC sign one way or another; they were always told that the train wouldn't be given a target unless the plunger had been operated. I'm not sure if that is the case though but I would imagine it could be overridden, whether individually or for all trains, but not working in signals I couldn't say for sure. It will be interesting to hear what happens with the new timetable; with train turnaround time of 4 minutes wheel stop to wheel start there's not much room for error but one things for sure, the public will continue to rush for the train and hold doors as if the 2 minute wait for the next train alongside is simply too long.
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Post by punkman on Mar 18, 2018 11:53:16 GMT
Some general comments in relation to this in addition to the other useful ones already posted. I agree 2 minutes is a long time from a service perpective, but in that time the driver had to make the announcement, call the controller and wait for a reply, then the contoller (or signaller more likely) would have had to reset the computer to allow the train to continue. To get a target point under normal conditions the doors would have to be proved cycled (opened and closed) first, presumably so drivers don't forget to do so. In this case with no door cycling it would have required controller / signaller input to reset the system to allow the train to continue. Possibly in this case the VOBC would also have been swapped over by the control centre to prevent the same thing happening at the next station, i.e. normally the rear VOBC is "Active" controlling the train but the front one could have then been made the active one. (If it was me I would have driven in protected manual - PM - to the next station anyway to make sure the same thing DIDN'T occur!) Fortunately in this instance it was Southwark rather than Waterloo, which would entail more inconvenience as the overcarried passengers would have had to change at Westminster where there is no simple cross platform changeover as the east and westbound platforms are on different levels.
Regarding the possibility of the driver applying an emergency brake, the train is normally coming in at or close to the target speed and there is no knowing it may overrun until the very last split second, by which time taking into account reaction time it would make little or no difference.
I have heard of instances of trains sliding through due to grease on the track after night time maintenance, but I have to say the Jubilee is generally pretty reliable in stopping at the right place.
@it's experience would most likely a train being driven in PM, probably a trainee driver.
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Post by punkman on Aug 24, 2017 13:05:16 GMT
The four day week trial was just that; a six month trial originally proposed by ASLEF at the three Jubilee line depots whereby volunteer drivers worked longer shifts over four days (i.e. working the same hours as the existing normal five day week). The main objection from the RMT was, I understand, the fact that it entailed shifts and driving times exceeding previously fought for and agreed parameters. I believe the six months are up in September, at which point the company was to review its success or otherwise before possibly rolling it out across the network. Quite what counts as a "success" I don't know, but I do know the uptake was initially poor, at least at the east end of the line. Word is there are mixed feelings both amongst those taking part and those not, one argument being that there were fewer long weekends for the five dayers who followed the roster.
My understanding is that ASLEF think it has been successful but RMT not. What the next step is I don't know, so watch this space.................
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Post by punkman on May 5, 2017 10:41:31 GMT
Noted out and about yesterday (Thursday 4th) was the third completed pair, 96125 / 96126.
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Post by punkman on Apr 28, 2017 11:26:06 GMT
The first set is 96060+96005. Unsure of train 2 at the moment. The second is 96121/122. These are a pair of the "newer" units, delivered around the time of the seventh car upgrade at the end of 2005 from memory. I think it's purely coincidental they are still in the same pairing as when delivered, as I'm sure they must have been separated at some stage of their life.
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Post by punkman on Mar 22, 2017 17:10:05 GMT
I'm not sure about D stock, but certainly on the Jubilee '96 stock they used to have that facility and it may even still be there prior to their refurb, but rarely if ever used now. In inclement weather when trains were at termini or held for extended periods at outside stations, drivers could enable "passenger mode" and close the doors so that passengers boarding could push the button to open them again. They used to have a similar feature whereby in similar circumstances drivers could use "select close" so that all doors except a single leaf one on each carriage would close. Obviously drivers were SUPPOSED to re-open them just prior to departing so that they didn't leave any confused passengers behind.
I agree it is confusing as others have mentioned other railways e.g. DLR, London Overground continue needing passengers to open them. Indeed in the Jubilee fleet overhaul the facility is being removed completely; one argument I've seen put forward is to dissuade latecomers attempting to push a door open button on an already departing train in the mistaken belief it would miraculously open!
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Post by punkman on Nov 26, 2016 16:24:50 GMT
I see this afternoon (Saturday) the TFL website is showing, "Minor delays due to a shortage of trains."
Surely this isn't for the same reason (flats) as the Piccadilly? Hopefully if that is the case it doesn't deteriorate in the same manner. All very embarrassing for LUL, especially in the public's eye to whom everything is black and white!
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Post by punkman on Oct 24, 2016 18:00:29 GMT
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Post by punkman on Oct 3, 2016 15:27:19 GMT
@marri1260 has got it spot on regarding the reason, more especially the bit about the difficulty of detraining at Wembley Park; indeed there was an American football match at Wembley yesterday. I have to disagree though about the DOH indication PROVING the route is already set; my belief it is just an indication to the driver, who would get a proving indcation when his or her TOD gave them the OK to poceed. The reason for my thoughts thus are I'm sure I've seen a train in the middle platform (14) at Stratford with WEH (West Ham) showing on the indicator, but knowing the train wouldn't be going anywhere immediately as another was crossing its path into platform 15. As soon as that train had fully berthed I could hear points moving and the driver shut the doors and left. (A separate "Route Secure" indication would be needed if travelling in degarded conditions i.e. Restricted Manual.) I also believe that these indicators have not been included on the Northern line, possibly leading to the part of the ASLEF report mentioned by tut (which admittedly I didn't fully read).
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Post by punkman on Aug 25, 2016 11:51:21 GMT
From the northbound they can only go into Klondyke, up to the north dock to then reverse and stable in the main depot. For that reason (time consuming!) it is quite rare although I have known it done for line training purposes. You are probably correct that WTT13 does not include such a path as I THINK the Charing Cross "rusty rail" path(s?) now run up to Wembley Park, then siding and thence depot.
On a similar theme about Jubilee trains crossing the Met line, on Mon to Wed after 22:00 due to the engineering work on the Met, Jubilee line Neasden stablers are having to route "over the top" across the southbound Met, as reversing Met trains are using the "dip." This is sometimes causing delays to the Jubilee as Met signallers tend to prioritise their reversers which look as though they run down to Neasden, reverse back north up Klondyke then the "dip" to Wembley Park northbound.
So to answer the original post, yes it is possible although I don't know the exact protocol for how the signalling / TBTC interface is managed.
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Post by punkman on Jul 22, 2016 6:34:59 GMT
Caught me on my way home from Finchley Road to Ruislip Manor. Fortunately before boarding a train. Took a Jubbly south (and another nasty moment when the driver told us that there was an 'incident' at London Bridge but we made it to Bond St), then a nice hot Central to South Ruislip and a bus. It's fun days like this that make me rather glad I no longer have to go in to town every day. Strictly speaking my reply should be on the Jubilee thread, but as you raised it here and no mention there, the "incident" at London Bridge was a report of smoke in the tunnel. Obviously taken seriously as they subsequently suspended for at least an hour between Waterloo and Canary Wharf.
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