Harsig
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Post by Harsig on Mar 21, 2005 15:38:57 GMT
IHowever, the FRL 'idiot lights' installed after the imfamous Hyde Park Corner incident, I thought it was Kings Cross, or was there more than one such incident?
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Jan 18, 2008 6:58:01 GMT
Post by Harsig on Jan 18, 2008 6:58:01 GMT
I don't understand why they're banned either - it seems like extra stuff to fail if you ask me. But the instruction to not use them for new work really is that old. (Don't ask how Aldgate, Rayners Lane and others were missed upon resignalling in the '80s...) In Rayners Lane's case its more than just missing out the task of converting the spring toggles to power operation. Of the two sets currently existing there, one is part of a crossover not installed until the 1985 resignalling and the other was definitely powered when first installed in 1935 although conversion to spring toggles appears to have occurred prior to the 1985 resignalling as there is no mention of it in the 1985 circular.
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Post by Harsig on Sept 22, 2007 19:01:13 GMT
Mayhem ! I'd have thought Ealing - Edgware Road's running via Platform 1 and Wimbledon - Upminster's via platform 2 was the ideal scenario of non-conflicting moves ! Not quite. That service pattern merely shifts the conflicting moves from the eastbound, where they normally are, to the westbound.
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Sept 22, 2007 10:22:24 GMT
Post by Harsig on Sept 22, 2007 10:22:24 GMT
Where the inductors have been replaced (as opposed to being decommissioned) proper 'two shot' timing sections have been installed, replacing the old Delta with JR circuits. OK Tom, why use a "two shot" timing section when one will do? Surely the one meets the full speed overlap requirements or do you need two for a high speed approach? Also, what's a JR circuit as opposed to a delta loop? From information I have: Single Shot JR OperationThe purpose of the single shot JR (Timing Relay) is to provide a speed check of a train over a fixed distance between a position detector and a train stop. Provided the speed of the train does not exceed the design speed through the timing section then the timer will complete its time out and allow the signal to clear. If the train is travelling too fast then it will either be brought to rest at the signal or be tripped. Two Shot JR Operation The purpose of the two shot method is to provide a speed check of a train over a fixed distance between two position detectors. Provided the train does not exceed the design speed through the first shot timing section, then the timer will complete its timeout and allow the signal to clear when the second position detector operates. However if the train speed is too fast and the timer has not completed its timeout, the timer operation is termintaed when the second position detector operates which forces the timer to drop out and restart for the second shot timing section. Now it seems to me that the two shot JR operation means that all trains that are travelling at or below the correct speed will find that the signal will clear while the train is at a predictable and consistent distance from the signal i.e. the location of the second Position Detector. If it does not clear at that point then it is not going to clear until the second shot timing has been copmpleted which I would imagine is set up such that the train has to be at or almost at a stand at the signal. Conversely with Single Shot operation the signal could in theory clear when the train is at any point between the position detector and the trainstop depending on just how far below the design speed the train is travelling.
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Post by Harsig on Jul 26, 2007 13:30:04 GMT
Here is a diagram that I've cobbled together from various sources. I can't guarantee that it is completely accurate but it should give an idea of the area. You may have to zoom in to see some of the detail; it was drawn to a nominal A0 page size.
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Post by Harsig on Jun 24, 2007 21:19:19 GMT
Still from about 2100 when the Barking signaller started putting up "Aldgate East" TD's the light box at Aldgate East remained blank. The scheduled reversers there weren't due till gone midnight I can assure you, since I was in charge of the signalling at Aldgate East from 21:30, that all trains were allocating themselves as Hammersmiths until approximately 23:30. However once each District was positively identified as such by looking at the headwall CCTV it was renumbered onto an eastbound trip which would cause the TD light box to go blank. Sometimes this could be done before the train is fully berthed in the platform, other times it may have been there a minute or two if others matters in the SCC control area were taking precedence. It sounds like each time you vistied Aldgate East later in the evening, you benefitted from a prompt renumbering.
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Post by Harsig on Jun 24, 2007 11:47:41 GMT
I never saw any H&C Whitechapel reversers either, so I presume they were being reversed at Aldgate or Moorgate to reduce pressure on Aldgate East. (Barking trips and Plaistow curtailments continued to run through). They were alternately reversed at Moorgate and Aldgate Platform 1. In fact the reason they appeared as Hammersmith via Kings Cross at Aldgate East was the fact that the timetable loaded into the computer had no Aldgate East Reversers in it apart from at the very end of the traffic day. This therefore meant that the computer was unable to match the received Train Descripton with any train in the timetable (it only looks an hour or so ahead) and so it was forced to assume that any train coming from Whitechapel was the next timetabled train which would always be 'Hammersmith via Kings Cross.
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Post by Harsig on Jun 14, 2007 7:26:02 GMT
I think its the car numbers i.e. the two units making up this train are the first and last in the single ended unit number series
i.e. 7000-17000-8000+8129-17129-7129
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Post by Harsig on Nov 8, 2006 12:16:43 GMT
An Update ! Twice yesterday I used the LC callback button ...and twice got a call back !! Yay ! Unfortunately on one of them having called me back and listened to my enquiry (why, having arrived at Tower Hill on time was I now at Aldgate East 10 late and still at a red signal?) simply hung up on me with no further comment ! Oh well, i did get the call back ! Funnily enough I had a phone call yesterday evening from the District Line Controller asking me why a train which had been a couple of minutes late at Tower Hill was ten minutes late Aldgate East. I told him it was because of blocking back from Whitechapel, at which point he hung up probably so he could interrogate the signalman at Whitechapel.
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Post by Harsig on Oct 18, 2006 18:09:27 GMT
Now we have trackernet about showing the locations of trains on bits of the District each train is represented on the diagram by a coloured line and an outline coloured box with the destination code for that train shown. My question is ..."Does anyone know what colours are assigned to all of the possible destination code variations ? ? ?" A full list can be obtained from Trackernet itself by selecting Train Legends from the Options Menu
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Post by Harsig on Oct 18, 2006 9:47:45 GMT
As a matter of curiosity, does this view show the wrong -road starter? I take it that the #-over is East of the station then? Excuse my ignorance please. www.urban75.org/vista/aldgate.htmlNo. The signals you can see are at the west end of the station. The one between the tracks is OB45, the junction signal for the routes to either Tower Hill or Liverpool St. Beyond it on the wall is a Fixed Red Light provided to remind drivers of trains reversing east to west that they must shunt forward into the tunnel before changing ends as the crossover is indeed east of the station.
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Post by Harsig on Oct 17, 2006 15:46:17 GMT
Now this indicator and the one at Aldgate East seems to be huge Are there really lots of odd destinations hiding behind that mass of black ? In theory I assume various H & C destinations and because of the reversing available at both, eastbound destinations, are there ...but are they According to a few moments research it seems that the WB platform train describer at Aldgate East can theoretiocally display the following destinations (I should imagine the one at Whitechapel would be the same) Special Stops Here Putney Bridge Northfields Parsons Green Acton Town Hammersmith via Kings Cross Wimbledon Hounslow Richmond Ealing Broadway Baker Street In addition it could also display the following Not Stopping at West Brompton Not Stopping at Ravenscourt Park & Stamford Brook Not Stopping at West Kensington & Barons Court Not Stopping at South Kensington & Gloucester Road No eastbound destinations can be displayed on the WB describer at Aldgate East, and since the computer which these days controls this describer will be regarding any train reversing west to east as an eastbound train (with appropriate TD) almost before the train is at a stand in the platform it is very unlikely that 'STOPS HERE' will be displayed either.
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Post by Harsig on May 5, 2006 9:04:17 GMT
Don't quite understand why the H&C are suspended from Liverpool Street > Barking , or the Met between Moorgate > Aldgate, when the Circle / District are running..... Is it to do with not holding up the Circles (about the Met / H&C ? ) As the Mets usually reverse in the Aldgate bay platforms, they are then terminated at Moorgate bay platforms instead. Although in fact the reason the Mets terminated at Moorgate was more likely to be because of late running caused by speed restrictions on the open sections of the Met (e.g. 20mph both roads Harrow to Uxbridge) Remember during the off peak all Aldgate services come from Uxbridge. Of course this had the happy effect of leaving the bay platforms at Aldgate free for the H&C service, doubly lucky as there are currently certain issues with C stock using one of the bay platforms at Moorgate.
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Post by Harsig on Mar 25, 2006 19:34:30 GMT
FCFS is indeed First Come First Serve but im sure the computer at baker street does not have this feature and only works to timetable or manual working via the signalman Baker Street has far more modes than a program machine site, NOOT etc, and FCFS Actually it has fewer; only three, compared with four for a programme machine.
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Post by Harsig on Mar 24, 2006 10:09:14 GMT
Also why on earth is there not a feed from those cameras in the vicinity of the signallers? The amount of times they ring down to the DMT to enquire what train is in the platform... That would cost money and take ages if the experience of Baker St SCC is anything to go by. Until 1998 Euston Square was the eastern limit of the SCC's control area. Then the Aldgate area was added. This left a gap between Euston Square and Liverpool St still controlled from Farringdon Cabin. Our biggest cause of wrong signals in the SCC is mis-identification of trains as they enter our control area and the transfer of the Aldgate area to the SCC introduced three new locations for trains to enter and be mis-identified (ex Tower Hill, ex Whitechapel and ex Liverpool St) All these are so close to the point where a wrong signal will be cleared that once a train is mis-identified there is almost no opportunity for the SCCA to correct it before the signals are cleared. Therefore in order to provide a little extra time CCTV cameras were requested to check train numbers at Liverpool St EB, Aldgate East WB, Tower Hill EB and Great Portland St WB (for trains coming out of the other end of the 'Farringdon' Gap). In 2000 Farringdon Cabin finally closed and the Euston Square to Liverpool St section came under the control of Baker St. In late 2003 or early 2004 the CCTV cameras were finally brought into use. The ones at Tower Hill and Aldgate East are worth their weight in gold and even the ones at GPS and Liverpool St have their occasional uses even though the gap in the SCC control area has disappeared. The trouble with Trackernet is that the number displayed is largely based on what the signaller thinks the train is.
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Post by Harsig on Mar 26, 2006 10:26:54 GMT
Neasden: (Harsig#9) Regarding going to depot over the top, is there some form of permission being given to 'hand over' control of MG 27 and 12 Points ? I'm not sure of the technicalities, but the basic method of operation is as follows. When a train is entering the depot over the top the Wembley Park Site Computer, which actually controls the IMR, will, provided it believes the train is to enter the depot rather than reverse on the reception road, when the train approaches MG27 display the incoming train No to the TMR. When they see the number they can set the route they wish at MG27 and this information is passed back to the Wembley Site Computer which actually moves the levers to clear the route. Similarly for outgoing trains the TMR can set the route up to MG30,MG31 or MG61 and this request will be passed to the Wembley Park Site Computer so that it will clear signals MG32,MG33 or MG62 as appropriate. When a train is due from depot its number will be displayed to the TMR by the Wembley Park Site Computer and when the train has reached any one of signals MG30, MG31 or MG61 the TMR can allocate this number to that train, which in effect means telling the Wembley Park Site Computer where the train is. The rest of the route out of the depot will then be set by the Wembley Park Site Computer according to the timetable information it has for that train. You will notice that the staff at Baker St have had no involvement whatsoever in this process, which is great when it is all working fine. However occasionally the link between the computers at Neasden TMR and the Wembley Park site computer goes down and this means work for the staff at Baker St. Firstly signals MG27, MG32, MG33 & MG62 will have to be cleared manually by the staff at Baker St according to the requirements of the TMR and secondly when an outgoing train arrives at the point where its number would be allocated by the TMR the train will have to be renumbered from 000 to its correct number by Baker St before the Wembley Park Site Computer will route it. All this means a lot of phone calls between the TMR and Baker St.
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Post by Harsig on Mar 26, 2006 10:07:06 GMT
Can I also add - will the new trackage allow for faster entry speeds into the SB fast at WP? I believe the answer is no. It will still not be possible to admit a train to platform 6 from the SB Fast while a train is leaving platform 5. Thus, in the opinion of everyone on the SCC, this is a greatly missed oportunity to update the signalling to reflect the current usage of the site; i.e. the fact that a significant number of trains now call at Wembley Platform 6 whereas when the signalling was originally designed most trains did not need to stop in the platform and therefore it wasn't nearly so inconveninet if they happened to be halted by signals just north of the platforms.
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Post by Harsig on Mar 25, 2006 8:51:40 GMT
Trains betwen Wembley Park and Neasden Depot. The 1939 resignalling placed a 'Slot' on Neasden South's three Departure signals making it neccesary for Wembley Park to give permission for movements between the two. This seems a basic signalling principle for what are 'Single Lines' . Is this principle not so today ? This Diagram shows the current arrangements. All the signals in the dip are these days controlled directly from Wembley Park IMR and all the proper interlocking exists between them, so there is no question of an unsafe situation arising. The reason that MG62 can be clear at the same time as MG16(2)/56/57/58 is because both ends of the dip can be used as reversing sidings i.e. for shunting trains wholly within depot by reversing between signals MG61 & MG62 while at the same time a train reverses between signals MG59 & MG60 for a move from, for example, Platform 4 to Platform 3 if the Jubilee wished to turn a train south to north at Wembley. The problem outlined above comes about because of the arrangements of the control side. Baker St has full control of all the signals shown on the diagram but the it is also possible for signals MG32, MG33 & MG62 to be cleared by the TMR without any involvement by Baker St, provided no conflicting route is signalled. In addition the TMR can also clear MG27 for inward movements and select the desired route at this signal. Presumably this was all done in order to reduce the workload on the staff at Baker St, by removing the requirement for them to be involved in shunt moves being made within the depot, the thinking being that they are supervising a much larger area than the signalmen in the old Wembley Cabin were. Similar arrangements exist for shunting at the south end of the depot.
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Post by Harsig on Mar 24, 2006 9:43:38 GMT
I doubt the controller was consulted. I should imagine the controller was consulted. After all he'd like to know why the trains were late leaving Barking and he definitely needs to know that the units have swapped trains for much the reason that Phil suggested Another place where trains have been known to end up facing each other, although not quite so close together, is entering Neasden Depot via the Dip from Wembley Park. In this case there are two signallers involved, one at Baker St and one at Neasden TMR and they can each put a train in the dip from their end at the same time. This situation doesn't arise very often fortunately as the solution is not nearly so simple since swapping trains is not a practical option. Reasons for this include - Trains may be different stocks i.e. an A and a 96
- Train going into depot may be defective or otherwise required in depot.
- Trains are too far apart for operators to safely swap over.
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Post by Harsig on Jan 31, 2006 15:51:55 GMT
I am waiting to get a wrongun at Aldgate back onto the green one, as the temptation will be immense to take it and try to get the train diverted to Barking for a reverse ;D Don't hold your breath. The way the system works it is far less likely for a train approaching the Aldgate area from Liverpool Street to be given a wrong signal than it is for trains approaching from Tower Hill or Whitechapel. That doesn't mean it can't happen but...
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Post by Harsig on Jan 19, 2006 22:24:49 GMT
There was a [very brief] experiment in the sixties with track loops on the Northern and District called 'Positive train Identification' It was so-so in sauces I believe. There was also an idea that was never implemented where they were going to put keypads on the platforms an timing points like Tower Hill upon which a driver would key in his train number and send Mame to the signaler. Dunno what happened to that. Positive Train Identification does exist on some lines, but not on Sub Surface Lines. Having said that when I was (briefly) at Earls Court in 2000 there was an experimental PTI installation for Earls Court eastbound and (I think) Monument eastbound. As I recall this worked by having a CCTV camera focused on the point where the train number would be when the train was stopped at the usual stopping mark. Optical Character Recognition software was used to read the train number from the image generated by the camera and this number was displayed to the signalman. It was not altogether successful as half the time it reported the train number as being ' ' which doesn't particularly help.
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Post by Harsig on Jan 19, 2006 22:15:41 GMT
Why does the Controller have to make the call to the drivers in the first place because surely the Signalmen can ring the platform at Tower Hill and Earls court & get an S.A. to observe the numbers and relay it back to him Ive seen that a lot lately as well. However you do it you are inevitably taking someone (whether Line controller or SA ) away from the duties they could otherwise be usefully doing since checking train numbers isn't part of anyone's job as in an ideal world it is unnecessary. Asking the Line Controller to do this will almost always be quicker than getting station staff to do it where only a few trains require to be checked since they can (in theory) talk to the train operator immediately wherever the train is where as utilising station staff means you have to wait for the member of staff to get into position on the platform and then wait for the train to arrive at that location. If many trains require checking then it is usually better to take the time to organise station staff to do it but even then the Line Controller might be called upon to check the first few trains that pass before the station staff are in position. Likewise there may well arise the situation where the train needs to be checked before it reaches the next station e.g. where an unidentified train is standing at a junction signal that is not a station starter. Here the only option would be train radio unless the signal post telephone has a ring back facility.
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Post by Harsig on Jan 19, 2006 18:42:41 GMT
Maybe this should be in a seperate thread (and I or someone will do just that if we get too technical!) but just a quick query about the Connect radio... I have seen a photograph of the radio panel which we drivers will have in the cab, and sure enough there's a button for 'signaller'. Now, will that automatically connect to the correct signaller wherever we are? For example, While I'm being held at OB31, when I press that button, will it connect me to Baker Street, then automatically switch to ECT when I arrive in Tower Hill? No idea on the answer to this one. The fact that you've seen a photograph of the radio panel demonstrates that you've received more comprehensive training on the connect system than those of us at Baker Street have so far received.
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Post by Harsig on Dec 9, 2005 2:28:03 GMT
Silly us. And we were trying to get the H&C and Circle running with any trains at all, when all the time we should have concentrated our efforts to the Amersham road ;D Of course! ;D There wasnt a met on the south for 1/2 hr at one point, as you can imagine people started to get a bit twitchy! On that branch all that generally means is that one train has been cancelled.
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Post by Harsig on Dec 9, 2005 2:25:32 GMT
It all went tits up again at about 0025! Yet another unattended item left on a train, so comlpetely suspended through the city for about 20 mins. The drivers of the last trains would have been happy! ;D The train involved was 251 the last Circle. It was eventually 40 late leaving Edgware Road for Kings Cross where it is booked to reverse. But that was a very minor matter compared with the state of the Met & Jubilee when I came on duty this evening.
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Post by Harsig on Dec 8, 2005 15:14:52 GMT
What has happened to the district line today? I know Ive mentioned this in another thread but today was horrendous. Suspect package at Monument, suspect package at Mansion House, 5 mph speed restriction at Plaistow both roads with Plaistow being evacuated because of a suspect package in the booking hall & a S.P.A.D. at Putney Bridge and that was all before 12 O'Clock I eventually finished 45 mins late and they wonder why moral is lower than ever. Sounds like a nice quiet day. At least the District had a better start to the day than the H&C which started with six consecutive signals failing at Kings Cross for the first train.
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Post by Harsig on Nov 14, 2005 11:11:26 GMT
Are there any more details available on what sort of failure resulted in the facing points getting knackered in the normal position? The points failed in the reverse position. It took an hour to get them normal again during which time the circle & District were suspended entirely. Once normal they were taken out of commission until repairs could be carried out over-night. This meant that while the District could run the Inner Rail Circles could not.
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Post by Harsig on Nov 13, 2005 18:26:51 GMT
I wonder how much fun aetearlscourt and Co. had at Tower Hill today ;D It was somewhat amusing to watch wrong TD after wrong TD get put up at Earl's Court e/b, confusing the huge crowd of punters enormously. The amusement got a bit greater when a D stock got diverted to Barking and substituted for a Wimbleware, resulting in a wrong stick at EC7 that shut down the whole e/b service completely, with both platforms occupied... Is the merry-go-round maneuver from pfm2 to Gloucester Road via EC11 rte 1 and EC7 rte 2 a programmable move? Nothing wrong at Tower Hill today. Minories Junction however was another matter. Being at Minories the failure was a matter to be sorted out by the Met technical officer & Signal Operations Manager. The problem was a points failure after the passage of the first (and as it turned out only) Inner Rail Circle of the day through Minories Junction.
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Post by Harsig on Oct 31, 2005 8:43:45 GMT
WG is putney bridge WK is turnham green WD is hammersmith theres no logical reason why the lettered the old cabins in this way must of been in order of when earls court took control of the old cabins now IMR's The codes generally predate Earls Court Control Room by about 50 years. As far as I know the codes between WG and WK have never been used although they may well have been deliberately set aside for possible future use at stations between Hammersmith and Turnham Green.
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Post by Harsig on Sept 13, 2005 15:51:00 GMT
What other infrastructure at West Brompton required the presence of its own interlocking? From the few diagrams I've seen there were WE home signals at the converging w/b junction from Earls Court, but that's all I've seen. Was WE originally for a passenger link to the WLER, or was it only for exchanging goods and/or rolling stock? I have very little information on West Brompton, but a description of the 1905 resignalling states
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