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Post by angelislington on Oct 23, 2008 23:29:58 GMT
I have a question about the use of the terms 'up line' and 'down line'. When were these terms first used? To me they make no sense whatsoever. ISTR that it's something to do with going up to London (or is it down?) and vice versa. But what about lines that don't go anywhere near London? What about the craziness of the Inner Circle being described on MRFS42's 1906 Met timetable as 'Up' being outer circle, and 'Down' being inner? Or the situation at Carlisle where 'down' line becomes the up line (on the goods line going to the Tyne Valley line)? Or, say, Bournemouth to Salisbury (going nowhere near London) where they still refer to up & down? If we talk about the M20 we talk about coastbound or London-bound: no room for doubt. Can't call it east/westbound as sometimes the motorway does kind of go north/south. This just strikes me as being eminently more sensible. Or am I missing something blatant here?   |
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Post by ruislip on Oct 24, 2008 0:17:29 GMT
I know that on lines servicing London, even as far back as when the Metropolitan Railway served the deepest parts of Buckinghamshire, "up" means towards London and "down" means away from London.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 24, 2008 0:27:20 GMT
The way "up" and "down" are defined is that "up" is towards the zero milepost and "down" is away from it. The zero milepost for all the lines radiating from London is at London.
On a branch line, the zero milepost is normally where it joins the mainline. On lines that are not branch lines but which go nowhere near London, the zero milepost is most frequently at whichever end of the line the head office of the company that built it was at.
The Bristol - Birmingham - Derby Line used by south-west to north-east (and vice versa) cross country trains has it's zero milepost at Derby. This means that a northbound train from the southwest is an up train to Derby and then a down train on the Midland Main Line where the zero milepost is at (I presume) London St Pancras. This presumably means that all cross-country trains departing Derby are down services.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 1:04:10 GMT
Although Chris is undoubtedly right about current usage on the railways, I have a feeling that the idiom pre-dates railways. I have recollection of mention of people going "up to London" in books dealing with times well before railways.
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Post by Colin on Oct 24, 2008 1:04:31 GMT
If we talk about the M20 we talk about coastbound or London-bound: no room for doubt. Can't call it east/westbound as sometimes the motorway does kind of go north/south. Not really on the subject of the original question, but replying to the bit quoted above which was in the original post.... The M20 is East-West. It doesn't matter if part of it goes North/South, from one end to the other is East-West and that's that! It's like the the District line example that really winds me up - the Wimbledon branch. The District line as a whole runs East-West; it doesn't matter whether the Wimbledon branch goes North-South on parts of the branch, it follows the convention of the line as a whole. The Jubilee line is a difficult one, particularly as it was originally North/South, however, like the Piccadilly line, it now has one end in East London and the other in West London - so AFAIC, they're both East-West! LU does of course have one line that is the exception to the rule - the Circle line ;D ;D |
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Post by angelislington on Oct 24, 2008 1:07:46 GMT
Duh! Something as that obvious! MRFS says it never occurred to me ;D . Makes sense even with the Vale of Rheidol where down trains climb 'up' the valley because they were moving away from the zero point at Paddinton <spit> (I hate the Great Western). ROFL
Thanks guys, that's made a lot more sense!
Still unlikely to remember it all.
Ongar! Ongar!
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Post by pakenhamtrain on Oct 24, 2008 2:03:47 GMT
One of the sayings from our railways(At least on the VR) was that you were heading "up" to head office.
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Post by Oracle on Oct 24, 2008 7:04:46 GMT
I can never recall which is Up and which Down on the Test Valley line, Redbridge Junction to Romsey Junction, and then the Salisbury Junctions.
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Post by mrfs42 on Oct 24, 2008 13:33:40 GMT
One of the sayings from our railways(At least on the VR) was that you were heading "up" to head office. Presumably that would mean Flinders Street or Spencer Stret? Still holds true for Barnes - Denilquin; Moama - Barnes - Balranald. Even though trains were heading for Flinders Street, rather than Sydney. (Balranald and Denilquin branches were in NSW, but only accessible from Victoria) The Jubilee line is a difficult one, particularly as it was originally North/South, however, like the Piccadilly line, it now has one end in East London and the other in West London - so AFAIC, they're both East-West! LU does of course have one line that is the exception to the rule - the Circle line ;D ;D Indeed, the WTTs for the Jubilee, post-extension have the page headings North/Westbound and South/Eastbound. Before that the pages were just like the Bakerloo with no declaration of direction - the galley was Stanmore - Charing Cross - Stanmore. Didn't the Hainault loop also use Outer/Inner Rail - I 've seen that used in signalling notices. |
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Post by Colin on Oct 24, 2008 14:16:35 GMT
Didn't the Hainault loop also use Outer/Inner Rail - I 've seen that used in signalling notices. Still does AFAIK. |
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Post by Phil on Oct 24, 2008 16:50:42 GMT
We had this before, didn't we? the acronyms were WIND and OUSE standing for: Westbound Inner Northbound DOWN and Outer UP Southbound Eastbound. This worked for a while, and partly still does, but the Picc and the Jub are notable exceptions. But that's how the outer rail was defined as UP.....I think  . Twas another member who first introduced it. |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 24, 2008 17:16:44 GMT
Could not the outer rail being "up" date from the earliest days?
Designating the eastbound Paddington - Farringdon service "up" would make sense in terms of eastbound trains at Paddington mainline station being up services (I have no idea whether it was so designated).
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Post by SE13 on Oct 24, 2008 18:20:54 GMT
I have no idea how true this is, however:
I was always told that wherever you are on a road, and a sign says, for instance; London 856 miles. This would actually be the distance to Charing Cross, and everything to that point would be UP to London, as in "all roads lead to London"
The idea was, on rails, that first class always pointed to London from wherever you were, so travelling from Plymouth or Newcastle, you would always be travelling UP to London......
How much of that is true, I don't know, but it was something I was taught as a youngster, and a Londoner, that the importance of London was never to be under-estimated.....
[Disclaimer]I have no idea of how much of that is true, and will gladly stand corrected, but as a Londoner, and brought up to be proud of it, being The Capital, that everyone should look up to the home of The Queen. [/Disclaimer]
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Post by Chris M on Oct 24, 2008 18:35:28 GMT
First class these days is still almost always towards London, certainly on Great Western.
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Post by cetacean on Oct 24, 2008 18:47:37 GMT
That's so it's nearest the concourse at the London termini.
Similarly, in fixed formation trains, the locomotive is usually away from the London end (the "country end"), so that passengers at London termini don't have to work past it (and it makes them easier to swap) - although precious few companies run locomotive-hauled trains any more.
(and one of them- National Express East Anglia - puts them on the London end as it makes servicing at Norwich depot easier)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2008 19:10:34 GMT
(and one of them- National Express East Anglia - puts them on the London end as it makes servicing at Norwich depot easier) I think there was also a potential problem with neutral section locations, so if a driver in a DVT had stopped at a signal on the approach to Liverpool Street a locomotive at the rear would be in a neutral section and stop the job! |
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Post by Colin on Oct 24, 2008 20:30:44 GMT
We had this before, didn't we? the acronyms were WIND and OUSE standing for: Westbound Inner Northbound DOWN and Outer UP Southbound Eastbound. This worked for a while, and partly still does, but the Picc and the Jub are notable exceptions. But that's how the outer rail was defined as UP.....I think . Twas another member who first introduced it. I think you have the wrong end of the stick there Phil - those acronyms are only used in terms of warnings given by lookouts to workers on the track. WIND is two blasts on the horn and OUSE is one.......assuming I've got them the right way round. |
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Post by Oracle on Oct 24, 2008 21:24:23 GMT
I thought distances were to No. 1 London, namely Hyde Park Corner ('No 1 London' being the Duke of Wellington's house).
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Post by Chris M on Oct 24, 2008 21:48:52 GMT
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Post by Harsig on Oct 24, 2008 23:34:57 GMT
The way "up" and "down" are defined is that "up" is towards the zero milepost and "down" is away from it. The zero milepost for all the lines radiating from London is at London. I've never before heard of up and down being defined in relation to the mile posts. Rather it was that Up was used for the direction leading to the more important location. There was however a natural tendency for the 0 mile post to be put at the more important end of the line but there are certainly exceptions even on lines radiating from London. Marylebone, for example is at Milepost 205¾ measured from Manchester |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 24, 2008 23:45:52 GMT
I did not know that about Marylebone. Are Marylebone-bound trains described as "up" or "down"?
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Post by cetacean on Oct 25, 2008 0:00:52 GMT
I presume it's because the line started in the north and was gradually extended towards London. Up is towards Marylebone in modern terminology, though I don't know about in the past.
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Post by Rich32 on Oct 25, 2008 1:17:29 GMT
I did not know that about Marylebone. Are Marylebone-bound trains described as "up" or "down"? Trains or running lines towards London are described as 'Up' and those away from London as 'Down', therefore a Marylebone-bound train will be an 'Up' train. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2008 6:19:24 GMT
Perhaps now, but not traditionally. I have a 1950 AA Road Book of England and Wales which states: Don't believe everything that's on plaques erected for tourists. It is also untrue that Brunel had anything to do with the design of the now-dismantled Blackfriars railway bridge. But somehow it has entered folk lore, and is parroted by the guides on tour buses and the boats to Greenwich. |
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Post by Oracle on Oct 25, 2008 8:36:19 GMT
From the west the mileage was to HPC..e.g. an old sign at Hounslow West on the A4 Great West Road read 'London 12 miles.'
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2008 10:12:45 GMT
From the west the mileage was to HPC..e.g. an old sign at Hounslow West on the A4 Great West Road read 'London 12 miles.' But it would have been much the same distance to Marble Arch..... |
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Post by angelislington on Oct 25, 2008 12:39:05 GMT
Gosh, now I'm really confused!
Interesting stuff, though, and thanks to all for your comments - food for thought!
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Post by cetacean on Oct 25, 2008 13:35:49 GMT
For extra fun look at the orbital routes. The West London Line is Up towards Waterloo (south then west) while the North London Line is Up towards Broad Street (north then west). At Willesden Junction WLL trains use the NLL platforms., thus a northbound WLL train is Down (running away form Waterloo) until it joins the NLL, where it becomes Up (towards Broad Street).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2008 14:27:35 GMT
The line from Eastleigh to Salisbury via Romsey was always 'down' to Salisbury as it as the original rail route from London to Salisburys Milford terminus. This was the original station that became a goods depot when the current Salisbury station opened. The GW and LSW lines west of Salisburys current station were parrallel as far as Wilton. The GW was 'up', the LSW 'down'! Is there anywhere else where parrallel lines had differing designations?
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Post by Chris M on Oct 25, 2008 16:35:40 GMT
At Canning Town station and as far south as the JLE portal, the Jubilee Line and DLR both run roughly north-south, one above the other. Eastbound Jubilee Line trains depart Canning Town heading north, Westbound DLR trains depart heading north.
A similar situation exists with the Victoria and Northern Lines between Kings Cross and Euston. Here you can head north from Eutson on the Victoria Line, change to the northbound Northern Line at Kings Cross and arrive back at Euston - repeat until you get bored.
According to CULG, DLR trains towards Stratford via Bow Church are down trains, but those to Stratford via West Ham will be up trains.
The potential for parallel up/down also happens at Gospel Oak, depending on which way the GOBLin is designated.
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. Twas another member who first introduced it.
