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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2007 20:57:37 GMT
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but I am intrigued and I think the subject warrants its own thread.
How will the 2009 ts be introduced on the Vic. I assume it won't be all at once, but rather as they become available.
This implies some kind of transition period, so will the new trains emulate the 67ts ATO, or will everything run in manual?
Will signaling upgrades be required before a single new train can work the line?
If so how wil this affect the operation of the existing stock?
I am sure this is all well and truly planned by now, but my mind is boggling!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2007 21:17:13 GMT
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but I am intrigued and I think the subject warrants its own thread. How will the 2009 ts be introduced on the Vic. I assume it won't be all at once, but rather as they become available. This implies some kind of transition period, so will the new trains emulate the 67ts ATO, or will everything run in manual? The 2009TS as delivered will have the necessary hardware to accept the new ATO/ATP trainside equipment; the 1967TS will have said equipment temporarily retrofitted, in the form of a New Auto Driver Box (NADB) that is capable of using the existing signalling and the new signalling, to allow the new signalling to be brought into use as quickly as possible. Channeling COLIN: districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=victoria&action=display&thread=1131046714Will signaling upgrades be required before a single new train can work the line? Yes, but only when the time comes for the 2009TS to run in passenger service. By the time the two prototypes are ready, the new signalling will be online in an interim format, with both stocks using it. If so how wil this affect the operation of the existing stock? See above. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2007 21:30:07 GMT
Thanks for that, it answers the question... and leaves me with another:
Is there a prototype modified 67ts, and is the system being trialed with real trains off the Vic line?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2007 22:24:04 GMT
There is, actually - the latest issue of Underground News shows a four car 1967TS being returned to Acton Works on a low loader after being converted as a testbed for the 2009TS traction package. The DM in the photo had its destination blind cheekily set to "SORRY NOT IN SERVICE"!
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Post by tubeprune on Apr 11, 2007 7:43:11 GMT
The 2009TS as delivered will have the necessary hardware to accept the new ATO/ATP trainside equipment; the 1967TS will have said equipment temporarily retrofitted, in the form of a New Auto Driver Box (NADB) that is capable of using the existing signalling and the new signalling, to allow the new signalling to be brought into use as quickly as possible. Yes, but only when the time comes for the 2009TS to run in passenger service. By the time the two prototypes are ready, the new signalling will be online in an interim format, with both stocks using it. My understanding was that the NADB was simply a replacement for the existing RADB on 67TS. It has some braking initiation enhancements and better data logging but no new interfaces. There was never an intention to allow 67TS to use the new Westinghouse DTG-R signalling. Has something changed very radically in the last few months? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2007 8:57:34 GMT
As far as I was aware the 67TS were going to run under the old signalling system, and the 09TS were going to run under the new signalling system. The two signalling systems being able to co-exist, as the speed codes are transmitted by different methods. Once all the 09TS and no 67TS are in service, then the signalling will be fully switched over to the new system. Just one, (or two?) 67TS are being converted to run under the new signalling as test trains. The NADB on the rest of the 67TS is to allow for more accurate stopping, and other modern enhancements.
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Post by trc666 on Apr 11, 2007 15:08:40 GMT
I thought the original plan was to have both stocks compatible with the old system and the new system, with a changeover date for the new one rather than both systems running at the same time. The 67 stock would be able to run on the new system before being replaced.
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Post by cetacean on Apr 11, 2007 16:01:28 GMT
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Post by prjb on Apr 11, 2007 19:17:42 GMT
Sorry I'm late, I do have an excuse note somewhere in my back pocket!  The 67 Stock ('Config B') was fitted with the DTGR system but it was not active as part of the train control system. So it gave information that could be measured but did not give authority for the train to proceed. The new stock will run on DTGR and the old stock on the existing system with both systems running in overlay. The NADB is just an enhancement as I understand it and has nothing to do with the new DTGR system. |
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Post by tubeprune on Apr 12, 2007 15:26:33 GMT
I am told that one of the features of the NADB is that it does not use the mercury retarders to regulate the braking. It uses something called a "Hall Effect" retarder. This measures deceleration magnetically. I can't pretend to understand the details but it allows a faster braking rate and - I hope - more accurate stopping. I hope they can get a better fade too.
Does anyone know if any are in service yet? Surely the crews will have been told?
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Apr 12, 2007 16:36:34 GMT
The Hall effect refers to the potential difference (Hall voltage) on the opposite sides of an electrical conductor through which an electric current is flowing, created by a magnetic field applied perpendicular to the current. Edwin Hall discovered this effect in 1879. Wikipaedia, though I did know something about it from my son's electronics homework! As to Hall Sensors: A Hall effect sensor is a transducer that varies its output voltage in response to changes in magnetic field density. Hall sensors are used for ... speed detection.......
Hall sensors are commonly used to time the speed of wheels and shafts, such as for internal combustion engine ignition timing or tachometers. In the ....wheel carrying two equally spaced magnets, the voltage from the sensor will peak twice for each revolution. This arrangement is commonly used to regulate the speed of disc drives.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor |
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Post by ratfink on Oct 24, 2007 8:15:13 GMT
here are some words for you
migration - swapping out 67ts for 09TS
overlay signalling - sitting the new BT/WRSL signalling on top of the existing VL signalling
overlay singnalling is going to be used until all the 67s are migrated off, it might extend a bit after (but not much) until all the new kit is in place (asset replacement complete).
during overlay operation, the westrace gets its state of railway info from the existing signalling.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 16:35:25 GMT
how many 09's have been produced or can run in service at the moment?
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 24, 2007 16:59:31 GMT
The Hall effect refers to the potential difference (Hall voltage) on the opposite sides of an electrical conductor through which an electric current is flowing, created by a magnetic field applied perpendicular to the current. Edwin Hall discovered this effect in 1879. Wikipaedia, though I did know something about it from my son's electronics homework! As to Hall Sensors: A Hall effect sensor is a transducer that varies its output voltage in response to changes in magnetic field density. Hall sensors are used for ... speed detection.......
Hall sensors are commonly used to time the speed of wheels and shafts, such as for internal combustion engine ignition timing or tachometers. In the ....wheel carrying two equally spaced magnets, the voltage from the sensor will peak twice for each revolution. This arrangement is commonly used to regulate the speed of disc drives.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensorI didn't know that, however the 'Hall effect' has been driving computer keyboards for some three decades now ever since it was cheaper than using individual pushbuttons to 'short' two contacts and make a circuit! I suspect that similar technology drives LCD displays that appear to be unconnected to a PCB except by a couple of apparently rubber strips! Brian |
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Post by cetacean on Oct 24, 2007 18:04:07 GMT
I didn't know that, however the 'Hall effect' has been driving computer keyboards for some three decades now ever since it was cheaper than using individual pushbuttons to 'short' two contacts and make a circuit! Pretty much every keyboard I've taken apart has had some sort of push button setup. Wikipedia says Hall Effect keyboards are very expensive. Those rubber strips are essentially very short ribbon cables - there's a row of conductors embedded along the middle of the the rubber. When you put the device together the ends press against contact pads on the PCB and the LCD glass. They have many more conductors than there are contact pads, which saves having to align them. |
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Post by Ben on Oct 24, 2007 20:53:32 GMT
There is one problem for the future of the 1967ts / all current automatic stock in use on London Underground after its withdrawl. If one wants to preserve it in working order, where will it run? There being no place left with compatible signalling. Granted it could be run in manual, but wouldnt that defeat the purpose, especially with the 1967 stock?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2007 20:57:15 GMT
Any Manual running would also defeat the object; I think the 67ts stock is restricted to 22mph, AND also does not have a conventional Deadmans Handle. Unless an owner is willing to spend £xxx's modding the running system of salvaging part of the signalling system...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2007 1:38:28 GMT
Any Manual running would also defeat the object; I think the 67ts stock is restricted to 22mph, AND also does not have a conventional Deadmans Handle. Unless an owner is willing to spend £xxx's modding the running system of salvaging part of the signalling system... Not quite. If you install a tripcock and cut out the CTV, you can drive the train at full speed on any conventionally signalled line, as long as the vigilance button is pressed. I have seen 1967TS running between Acton and Finsbury Park and they always run at line speed. |
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Post by trc666 on Oct 25, 2007 2:10:34 GMT
You hit the nail on the head there. 67 stock would just have the tripcocks fitted if it were to go to the Bakerloo or IOW or whatever.
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Post by towerman on Oct 25, 2007 3:57:18 GMT
If tripcocks are fitted to 67TS a little train key operated cock inside the offside equipment cabinet bypasses the VTV/CTV and there is no need to depress the VTV button.
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Post by Oracle on Oct 25, 2007 8:36:16 GMT
On the Auto Tube Rambler tour, the 1967 Stock ran on the Central, Picc, District all at line speed with pax. And auto mode on the Hainault loop, and out of the Depot just to demonstrate what would happen!
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Post by Ben on Oct 26, 2007 9:53:45 GMT
Fair enough, if it saw further revenue service, yes, mod it however. But for preservation that idea would be a non-starter. The 1967ts has an important role to play in Londons railway history as an ATO stock. Seems wrong almost that for it to run akin to the 38ts in preservation it would need something that would essentially alter its character. Pedanticism perhaps, but...
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Post by georgedishman on Jun 9, 2008 8:24:27 GMT
I am told that one of the features of the NADB is that it does not use the mercury retarders to regulate the braking. It uses something called a "Hall Effect" retarder. This measures deceleration magnetically. I can't pretend to understand the details but it allows a faster braking rate and - I hope - more accurate stopping. I hope they can get a better fade too. This is a bit of a belated response but I'm new to the group. The NADB uses a MEMS accelerometer, no Hall effect involved. The stopping accuracy is significantly better than the RADB but not because of the accelerometer, it does just as well using the tacho only. The improvement comes from better understanding of the braking system, very flexible use of the LowMin control to tweak the rheo current, not being limited to the fixed demand rates and recalculating 8 times a second instead of once per second in the RADB's DTG mode. The fade is improved a bit but not as much as was originally intended, it would have added several seconds to the JTC. |
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 9, 2008 16:00:46 GMT
I am told that one of the features of the NADB is that it does not use the mercury retarders to regulate the braking. It uses something called a "Hall Effect" retarder. This measures deceleration magnetically. I can't pretend to understand the details but it allows a faster braking rate and - I hope - more accurate stopping. I hope they can get a better fade too. This is a bit of a belated response but I'm new to the group. The NADB uses a MEMS accelerometer, no Hall effect involved: www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,ADXL202,00.html Welcome, Sir to our group. This is very interesting and I am most grateful that you have added to our knowledge. I was told by a VERY SENIOR Underground engineer that the Hall Effect principle was involved. I would be interested to know how this MEMS thing works. There must be some mechanical system involved surely?I thought I understood it pretty well and I know it has it quirks. Does RBPR still affect the rheo operation on the whole train even if one car fails to get rheo?How does the Low Min affect the rheo? I thought the Low Min just gave a pressure switch brake and whatever the MIN rheo gave. Perhaps I don't know as much as I thought I did. [sheepish grin]Trying to get this to improve a terrible braking system must be the trimuph of hope over experience. I really hope it works. I must spend a few hours on the Vic Line trying to find a train which brakes half decently. I was challenged by said SENIOR PERSON to find one I thought had the NADB and let him know to see if I could detect the difference. He has a list. (No, don't tell me!) I haven't found one yet. Can you get +- 500mm accuracy without a quick grab at the red handle? Ah, so passengers will still be shaken, not stirred.  |
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Post by 100andthirty on Jun 9, 2008 17:52:29 GMT
Dear Tubeprune.
I travelled on one on Friday with the person who is, in all probability, the senior person. The braking was incredibly smooth.
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Post by georgedishman on Jun 10, 2008 7:43:46 GMT
This is a bit of a belated response but I'm new to the group. The NADB uses a MEMS accelerometer, no Hall effect involved. Welcome, Sir to our group. Thanks, nice place you guys have here. Yes, but it is very small. The mechanics are at the micron scale and etched out of the metalisation layer on a chip. Motion is sensed by the variation of the capacitance between the metal and the IC surface. AFAIK, if one fails RPBR is not set and they all drop out but my knowledge on that side is much more limited. Activating the LowMin wire reduces the current at which cam notches, which is why the rheo effort in "Min" is less than the other modes, the rheo alone would be too high if the threshold wasn't changed. If you switch LowMin on while braking, the speed drops without the cam changing so the retardation reduces as the back-EMF falls. When LowMin is released, the cam notches as much as is needed to get to the higher current so the braking effort rises rapidly - fast attack, slow decay. <snip> excessive detail </snip> Of course you are right in that the air is also affected but activating PSB actually releases air if it is above 15psi so a second effect of the NADB approach is that air is released and the rheo contribution maximised to help reduce brake wear. It was a challenge(!) but it is effective. The girlfriend of the DO guy who did the layout for the PCBs worked in London. Two years ago, she told him she had been on a train driven by an NADB, she could feel the difference! The requirement is to be releasing the brakes as it comes to a rest, precisely the opposite of a "quick grab", and that accuracy figure is what is achieved. The spec'd ease-out was implemented at first and "bum tests" said it was very smooth, but one senior person reported it was so smooth, he almost got sea sick! The reduced ease seems to be a comfortable compromise. |
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 10, 2008 13:27:39 GMT
Thank you very much for all the info. I guess the principle of the MEMS is really quite similar to "Hall Effect", hence the confusion. Do you need to protect it against spuroius EMI? If so, how?
As for the RBPR, one of the main reasons for the overruns was the failure of the RTTC and the loss of rheo when selecting braking. The feed up for the e.p. was too slow to recover the profile needed for an accurate stop.
I must get around and try to find a fitted train!.
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Post by georgedishman on Jun 11, 2008 7:27:04 GMT
Thank you very much for all the info. I guess the principle of the MEMS is really quite similar to "Hall Effect", hence the confusion. Not really, a MEMS device relies on a mechanical structure etched out of the metalisation layer, in this case a deformable beam with a position sensor. The Hall effect is a voltage that appears between the sides of a semiconductor channel with a current flowing through it purely due to the force exerted by a magnetic field on a moving charge. No moving parts other than the electrons and all within the silicon. No, but I notice the device seems to be packaged with a metalised lid so perhaps Analog Devices found they needed that when designing the IC. I'm not familiar with "RTTC", I guess "Round Train ..."?. I can't speak for the RADB but failure of the rheo isn't usually a problem for the NADB, the servo system just uses more air instead and achieves similar accuracy to a rheo stop. When arriving in CSR, it knows there will be no rheo and adjusts the braking initiation point accordingly. Degradation of the accuracy is only likely if the speed happens to be close to the lower rheo limit but just above it whereupon a failed attempt to initiate rheo delays the reversion to using air. In that case there is very little time for the system to settle onto the profile and result is as likely to be an underrun as an overrun. There's nothing the NADB can do about it anyway since any air in the cylinders is vented during rheo proving, but hopefully the rheo speed limit is set at a level where failure to prove is rare. Incidentally, your handle reminds me there used to be an interesting article on the RADB on the "Tubeprune" website a few years ago but the site was rearranged some time ago and the bookmark is no longer valid. Do you have a connection to that site or is the handle just a coincidence? Do you know if the article is still on-line? |
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Post by tubeprune on Jun 11, 2008 10:19:20 GMT
Incidentally, your handle reminds me there used to be an interesting article on the RADB on the "Tubeprune" website a few years ago but the site was rearranged some time ago and the bookmark is no longer valid. Do you have a connection to that site or is the handle just a coincidence? Do you know if the article is still on-line? I confess. I am the same Tubeprune. This is the only page I recall with the RADB mentioned: www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Victoria%20Line%20ATO.htm |
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Post by georgedishman on Jun 11, 2008 11:54:35 GMT
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