towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 7, 2006 23:54:54 GMT
What about trains that have been sitting over a pit all day and are only railed for service a matter of minutes before they're due in?The air con wont have a chance to kick in before the punters are on board.
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Post by Chris M on Jun 8, 2006 0:28:49 GMT
off-the-top-of-my-head ways to solve this: - Don't put trains into service until they have cooled down - this may not always be possible though
- provide a method of powering only the aircon so other work is safe to do - is this (a) technically possible? and (b) compliant with electricity and work and other H&S requirements?
- Hook trains in the depot into a depot-wide aircon system - probably very expensive to set up and awkward to implement/use
- Portable cooling units - possibly expensive, a lot of hassle to take on and off train. Not a good idea if any accidentally get left on the train as it goes into service.
- use the vent system until the aircon is up to speed - from what has been previously said though this might not be possible for the same reasons as open windows + aircon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 3:45:09 GMT
What about the doors?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 8:05:18 GMT
I don't mind the current livery, what's so bad about it? The current trains look better than the unpainted ones. And my question stiil hasn't been answered-the kind of doors-sliding or plug? If sliding pocket or externally hung?
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Post by Chris M on Jun 8, 2006 8:29:32 GMT
Some of the NR TOC's have very pleasing paint jobs ... and First ain't so bad either. What!?!?! Which of the many First liveries are you thinking of? The standard Barbie (e.g ScotRail) and Barbie 2 (Great Western) are near the bottom of my favourites list. The new Great Western livery (Nightclub/Neon/Energiser/"Dynamic lines") is a bit better, but still not brilliant. The worst has to be Arriva's standard coroprate livery, followed by Network SouthEast and Regional Railways. LU's red/white/blue is a very good livery, although I agree not as classy as the red and cream. The red and cream livery would not meet DDA requirements though, as the doors are the same colour as the bodywork. The obvious thing to do would be to paint the doors cream, but I don't know how this would make them look.
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Post by Christopher J on Jun 8, 2006 8:38:27 GMT
I quite like Midland Mainline's teal, silver and white livery on their HSTs and 222s.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2006 17:37:20 GMT
This months LURS Underground News has an article about the S-stock, with many useful facts, but also some unuseful speculation/dreaming.
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Post by russe on Jun 9, 2006 0:25:26 GMT
I was at a meeting this morning and the horizontal grab rails have been put on the agenda, there will be a series of computer based studies to see if they are required. We all know what the outcome will be! For those of us who are not clairvoyant, could you elucidate what this outcome might be? I would respectfully suggest, as a quick and effective adjunct to your computer-based study, that a observation field trip on any crowded tube or surface stock train will give you all the evidence you need about the necessity of horizontal grabs at or above typical shoulder level. Ah... That is reassuring, but wait, what's this then?: I am in two minds about the desirability of armrests. My familiarity with armrests, on a regular basis, was with '59 and '62 stock. The armrests were substantial, very well rounded, and of an unpropped cantilever design. On an uncrowded train, one had complete use of at least one to rest the arm on, which is useful for slobs like me. On a crowded train, the substantial width of the armrest meant that one could usually 'negotiate' bodylanguage-wise with the passenger in the next seat for at least a consensus share of the armrest. The unpropped nature of the armrest cantilever was crucial in my opinion: very useful when carrying an umbrella or suitcase or whatever, in the sense that the item being carried could be slid in and out under the armrest without impediment. The unpropped nature also serves well the needs of people who need to angle one of both of their legs slightly when alighting from a seat. (Note how many people angle their torsos when getting up from a seat.) The well-rounded nature of the old armrest design was perhaps the most important of all: on a bucking train, the human body often tends to 'fall into' a seat, and the generous curves on all surfaces of the armrest were I always thought perfectly safe. All in all, an extremely good, practical and safe design. But I look at the armrest in the above picture and what do I see? A nasty, sharp-edged, lethally-pointed, thin, propped cantilever. If you want to maintain any semblance to your comfortable and safe heritage, this design is most definitely not it. Russ
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2006 16:23:00 GMT
For those of us who are not clairvoyant, could you elucidate what this outcome might be? If you want to maintain any semblance to your comfortable and safe heritage, this design is most definitely not it. Russ You don't need to be 'clairvoyant' to know that horizontal grab rails are needed which is why I felt it didn't need stating and also why we will let Bombardier do their study. With regards to your other comments on the arm rest, you qouted me perfectly: "the images posted are early design and not representative of the final product".
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2006 16:31:01 GMT
What about trains that have been sitting over a pit all day and are only railed for service a matter of minutes before they're due in?The air con wont have a chance to kick in before the punters are on board. This shouldn't happen at all, in the future or today. There are standards which the Infraco's must meet for battery power levels and trains should not be offered for service after being off juice for a considerable period of time.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2006 16:33:40 GMT
And my question stiil hasn't been answered-the kind of doors-sliding or plug? If sliding pocket or externally hung? Sorry mate, I'm not ignoring you (promise!). I am just seeking clarification on something before getting back to you.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2006 16:38:06 GMT
We've seen the excellent body design for the new stock but what about the cab ends? Are there any illustrations for that at all? Another thing comes to mind. Are they to be painted in that bloody awful red/white/blue colour scheme or can we have some nicer livery? I have been given permission to post an external shot, but it is a really (I mean really!) old design and the current look has moved on considerably. I can send it to Phil for posting if you like, but it isn't very accurate of what you'll end up with. Love it or hate it, the current livery is our specified corporate image and we will not be moving away from it any time soon. For what it's worth I thought the 59 heritage train looked lovely (it was a heap to drive though!).
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 9, 2006 18:38:59 GMT
Re trains over pit,no matter how well charged the batteries are they wont sustain an air con unit,the load's too great.As for trains being railed in plenty of time for service,at SMD the ruling is no trains to be railed more than 10 mins before service.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2006 20:53:15 GMT
Re trains over pit,no matter how well charged the batteries are they wont sustain an air con unit,the load's too great.As for trains being railed in plenty of time for service,at SMD the ruling is no trains to be railed more than 10 mins before service. They must be maintaining the battery charge somehow then. It may be through overhead trolley leads or by merely shutting down all auxillary circuits. However they do it, they have to ensure a minimum battery life when the train enters service. If, on 'S' Stock, they keep the air con running through overheads and then rail it/unplug it 10 minutes before then that would meet operational requirements. The internal temperature would not drop that drastically in the time between being unplugged and entering service.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 9, 2006 22:01:36 GMT
Sometimes its not possible to jumper up the train till the last minute due to the nature of the work being undertaken.I know battery charge should be to a certain level,I think it's supposed to be checked every 6 weeks,but like all maintenance regimes these periods tend to drift.Anyway the main purpose of batteries is,or was, to give emergency lighting,not power other equipment.If the S stock is like other ATO stock then all the ATO equipment will be fed direct from the battery not the static convertor as electronic equipment likes a clean feed with no spikes,yet another drain on the battery.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2006 22:17:39 GMT
The air con on 'S' will not run off the batteries in any scenario. The depot must ensure that all trains offered for service have a minimum battery life (in accordance with standards), this must be acheived or the train cannot be offered for service. There should be none of this "stick it in and it will charge on the road" mentality.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 9, 2006 23:11:41 GMT
Not like on the 62's,reset MA by hand,5mins on gassing charge."That's ok now driver" and off he went.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 9, 2006 23:12:52 GMT
Yep, they really don't make em like they used to!
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Post by Ben on Jun 10, 2006 13:58:47 GMT
Question is if LUL respects its history then why not? Sure the tube is overcrowded, but its cynical to try to build that in. If the tube is to keep going for any amount of time then over crowding will eventually have to be addressed some time (I say this in regard to a comment that was made about the seating layout).
Why is it so wrong to use outdated technology if its simple and reliable? Embracing modern computer technology isnt bad if it can make a differance. But if it has any downsides that could be problematic then a simpler solution is deffinately desireable. If the 1962 tube stock were still on the central then it would have been easier to route it to uxbridge for example.
One thing the tube has to try to do is make a quality finish and impresion, but cheaply. I personally would love it if varnished teak was abundant on the trains; if chairs were high backed, sprung and comfortable, if the surroundings weren't sterile and annonomous. But then again I guess its not practical nor ecconomical in these times. I deffinately would have liked to be around 50 years ago to have experianced that. But instead people my age never will. A pity cos thats what made London Underground prestigious.
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 10, 2006 17:25:33 GMT
My 'we don't make em like we used to' comment was more jest than anything else. You can't seriously expect us to implement out of date technology on a new build train? LU is attempting to meet the changing needs of it's customers by the very upgrade this thread is discussing. We are adding an extra car on the Circle line and the new stock will be bigger and able to carry more customers than anything else on the railway today. Not to mention the fact that this stock will make the system more accessible to a much wider range of customers with diverse needs. As for new technology being problematic, every stock we have ever introduced has been problematic. In the context of this thread though, we are currently discussing power arrangement issues which are as valid for current stock as the new one be designed. Without going into a three page summary, it would be impracticle to rebuild a 62 stock for a whole host of reasons. Firstly they would not meet RVAR regulations, secondly they would not meet any modern crash worthiness tests, they would not meet any Human Factors assessments, and they certainly wouldn't meet HMRI or H&S guidelines. Furthermore it is wrong to use outdated technology because it would not be cost effective and would represent extremely poor value for money for the tax payer. The entire rail building industry (which as everyone knows is not a huge industry) is tooled up to produce and maintain modern technoligically advanced trains, as it is easier to build and cheaper to maintain rolling stock as a result. Bombardier are refurbishing one and building two LU fleets but thats about it, what if they get no further orders? They need to be cost effective to survive, and we need them to be for the same reasons. This doesn't mean that we forget our heritage though, it just means we incorporate it with modern features which also represent our corporate image and desire to be 'world class'. If you think you are ever going to see varnished teak on any train then you are in for a disappointment though. Incidentally, if the 62's were on the Central line today we would have a fleet that was collapsing into the ground at a rate of knots. Don't let nostalgia cloud your view, they were not the best trains in the world, I should know - I drove them!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 10, 2006 20:11:54 GMT
Still better than those heaps of s*** the Central has now.Why do rolling stock designers never learn from their mistakes?73TS fitted with dump valves on each brake cylinder,a form of ABS "will stop the wheels locking up,flats will be a thing of the past"2 years later,all dump valves removed as they were doing the exact opposite.Forward 20 years to 92TS what have they got?Yes dump valves,and what had to be removed because they were causing flats,yes dump valves.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 10, 2006 20:15:42 GMT
I'm not disagreeing the 62TS would now be a maintenance liability,but when they were thinking of doing a major line refurb in the late 80's I reckon they should have done the Northern first,the 59TS was in a far worse state than the 62TS.
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Post by prjb on Jun 10, 2006 21:50:21 GMT
I wouldn't disagree with you, the Northern should probably have been done first. Having 'cut my teeth' on the Northern in the late 80's I am all too familiar with why it got tagged the misery line. As for 72ts, I operated them as both a driver and a guard, granted they weren't particularly good. You do have to remember with the 72ts though that we are talking about a train designed in the early 60's for the Vic that got rushed out with just a few mod's for manual operation. The 'S' stock we are discussing here is worlds apart from a 95/96, let alone a 92. The point I was trying to make is that it is ludicrous to suggest we just build a new 62ts rather than design a train for todays world with todays technology. The idea is to fuse key elements of our heritage with a modern design that is consistent with LU's desire to be 'world class'. I never suggested in any post here that we were going for a 38ts interior!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 10, 2006 22:47:14 GMT
The 72TS was/is actually a good stock,the problem with the Mk1's on the Northern was that a lot of the maintenance staff who were brought up on 38TS were not very up on the then modern technology and so they suffered in the attention they got,you can see the difference with the much better turnout of the Mk2's from Stonebridge Pk.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Jun 11, 2006 0:14:39 GMT
Re generic stock for SSL,I hear that Neasden is going to be the major maintenance depot for SSL and Ealing,Hammersmith and Upminster are going to be satellite depots just doing cleaning,exams and light running repairs,will this mean there will be just one WTT for SSL with some trains that start at the out depots finishing at Neasden and vice versa.
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Post by Colin on Jun 11, 2006 1:00:45 GMT
Upminster has had a new shed built - something to do with deep cleaning AFAIK. Also there's a wheel lathe being/has been installed too. The grand plan is to take on a more balanced role with Ealing Common depot, such that both depots can be independant of each other - instead of the current set up where Ealing Common does the lion's share of work.
AFAIK it is true that Neasden will be the SSR 'super depot', responsible for all the major overhaul stuff on S stock. I would imagine that trains will only go there via transfer paths, as opposed to being scheduled by WTT - especially as the Met will use 8 car trains and the rest 7 cars.
I'm sure prjb will be along soon to put us right though...
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Jun 11, 2006 19:49:12 GMT
No mate, it sounds right to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2006 13:49:45 GMT
Only just entering this thread, so forgive me if I've missed it being discussed already (I haven't had time to read the entire thread!).
Can I ask that the PEA's are placed at a decent height away from kids? Since the refurbs were introduced on the District with much lower PEA points, I've been pulled down 6 times, and every time it has been a child playing with the handle! The last occurance of this was yesterday on the Ealing-Acton shuttle having to force my way through a pcked car 6 to find the activated handle!
I know that disabled people need to be able to reach the PEA's but at the height they are on the refurb D's, they are at perfect height for kids or for people leaning on them!
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Post by Chris M on Jun 12, 2006 13:58:49 GMT
Is there talkback between the handle-puller and the driver? If so is there any way (technically and/or rule-book sanctioned) method of remotely resetting an alarm if you are informed it was an accident or inquisitive child? Wouldn't stop the chavs, but would help reduce delay caused by kids with helpful parents.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jun 12, 2006 16:46:49 GMT
Sorry prjb, in retrospect some of what I said was perhaps naieve, and the wording poor. I merely make the point that technology that isnt cutting edge has had time to develop and mature properly over a period of many years and in some cases a decade or so.
An example of this would be destination blinds. A flourescent tube with a canvas blind in front of it is based on extreamly old technology. But its simple to fix (surely?) and is very clear to read from the platform. Its replacement on modern stocks has been LED's which I'm guessing must be more conveniant somehow. But then again you need a processing/control unit to tell which LED's to light, and you need the LED's to all be the same colour, brightness, size, etc. And, though its just my opinion, due to the fact that letters are pixelated instead of actual written shapes, they can be more difficult to read. I dont know that much about electronics, but surely the technology in the control units goes out of date quicker than a light bulb? Wasn't there something like this happening on jubilee stock?
Granted a major bonus with LED's is that they can be in the carraiges aswell and can all update at the same time too. But then again in a carraige one has longer to look at them, and one tends to be stationary in relation to them.
Dont get me wrong, I dont know the story with desto blinds, I merely make the point for the principal. And yeah fair enough, I over exaggerated with the Teak comment. Lol, I dont ever expect to see that sort of thing anywhere in the UK apart from on a heritage railway, or heritage run. Then again the seats in a 38ts are more comfortable than a 92ts by far... It just seems to me that more pride was taken in older stocks than in modern ones and it shows to the passenger. Plastic is cheap and shows it. Wood and brass arent cheap and dont look it. I dont imagine for one second that there will be wood or brass in the new stock because of the practicalities and expence, but it does look nicer:) I guess my only point there is the ambiance, but then again thats an obvious thing. And I'm sure that the designers will endevour to do the best with what they've got to play with.
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