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Post by Harsig on May 16, 2006 18:04:27 GMT
Again thanks to MandGC, I'm now able to make available these diagrams of the Bakerloo between Stanmore and Elephant & Castle as it was in 1939. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2006 18:21:05 GMT
Very interesting, thanks for posting that. Just a few questions:-
1) Due to lack of draw-up signals in the SB platforms at Baker Street, I would assume that the overlap from the starter to junction was sufficient for the speed limit into the station? If so, what was the speed limit?
2) There is no crossover South of Elephant&Castle. I assume this diagram was from before the overrun tunnels were re-routed, and the crossover tunnel added?
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Post by mandgc on May 29, 2006 1:30:15 GMT
Reversing at Piccadilly Circus.
I think Crossover No.6 was installed when the Flood Gates at Charing Cross were built. At the beginning of the War when an Air Raid Alert was in force, SB Bakerloo trains were reversed at Piccadilly.
The SB platform was normally used but, if neccesary, the NB platform could be used. The Drivers of trains entering the NB platform from the SB line had to draw the front of the train beyond the platform until the rear was 'in clear' of signal BP11. When BP11 signal was cleared for the NB line the Guard authorised the
Driver to set back into the platform and the doors could be opened and the passengers let out.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2006 22:16:05 GMT
Reversing at Piccadilly Circus. I think Crossover No.6 was installed when the Flood Gates at Charing Cross were built. At the beginning of the War when an Air Raid Alert was in force, SB Bakerloo trains were reversed at Piccadilly. The SB platform was normally used but, if neccesary, the NB platform could be used. The Drivers of trains entering the NB platform from the SB line had to draw the front of the train beyond the platform until the rear was 'in clear' of signal BP11. When BP11 signal was cleared for the NB line the Guard authorised the Driver to set back into the platform and the doors could be opened and the passengers let out. So would I be right in saying that if BP11 was clear for a train to set back and berth in the NB platform, that a train couldn't then leave NB from the SB platform? |
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Post by mandgc on May 29, 2006 23:37:50 GMT
BP11 would not clear if either crossover was in Reverse.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2006 6:52:11 GMT
There aren't any 'X' automatic signals in rear of the outer homes of any of the boxes either... Why??
Sam
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Post by mandgc on Jun 2, 2006 5:08:39 GMT
No X Signals -
If the additional crossover at Piccadilly was a hurried "Wartime Job" the other signalling South from Baker Street may have existed for some time. (Before X Signals were ' invented '?)
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Post by mandgc on Jun 3, 2006 0:34:30 GMT
Another interesting bit (well - for some of us ) is the additional southbound line between West Hampstead and Finchley Road , between 41 & 48 and 43 & 45 Crossovers.
This enabled the 'All Stations' Metropolitan trains (that ran after Bakerloo trains had been extended to Stanmore) to wait for their path on the SB Fast line. They did not last long, perhaps they were a sop to the Met's City Gents from Willesden Green or Kilburn or the workings were too complicated.
It was possible to cross from the Fast to the Local line as well but I haven't heard of any Bakerloo Expresses.
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Post by Harsig on Jun 3, 2006 7:31:53 GMT
It was possible to cross from the Fast to the Local line as well but I haven't heard of any Bakerloo Expresses. No but the facility was used during some weekend possession works in the 1970s when the bridge carrying the northbound lines over Kilburn High Road was replaced. With only the southbound lines available the Met service was suspended south of Wembley but the Bakerloo continued to operate. Southbound services were run over the Southbound Met line from Wembley to Finchley Road crossing back to the Bakerloo via the aforementioned loop, while northbound worked wrong road over the southbound Bakerloo between West Hampstead and Willesden Green. The method of working for the northbound was as follows: On arrival at W Hampstead northbound platform the passengers would transfer to a train standing in the southbound platform. This train would then depart northbound wrong line to Willesden Green and cross back to the correct line via No 39 crossover north of Willesden. Meanwhile the original train would reverse via W. Hampstead siding to the southbound platform and then awaited the arrival of the following northbound Bakerloo train. |
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Post by Tom on Jun 3, 2006 16:43:54 GMT
There aren't any 'X' automatic signals in rear of the outer homes of any of the boxes either... Why?? Sam Apart from the obvious reason that they're not always required, the drawing shows at least six X signals or their repeaters(BMX398 C, BMX503 D, RMBX601, BPX381, BPX372, EX146). |
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Post by mandgc on Jun 4, 2006 0:29:25 GMT
You are quite correct, Tom, Piccadilly and Elephant both have 'X' signals.
I was suggesting that the rest of the Bakerloo signalling was not ,perhaps, modernised at the time of the Extension to Stamore. BMX signals were for the new Baker Street SB and RMBX was upstairs for the Met.SB.
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Post by mandgc on Jun 4, 2006 0:35:18 GMT
Kilburn Occupation, 1970s. (Harsig #8 )
What an immaginative substitute service ! Rather like Ravenscourt Park's.
Now they seem to "Get out the Buses ! " :-)
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Post by Harsig on Jun 4, 2006 9:36:20 GMT
Kilburn Occupation, 1970s. (Harsig #8 ) What an immaginative substitute service ! Rather like Ravenscourt Park's. Now they seem to "Get out the Buses ! " :-) Another reasonably imaginitive alternative on the Bakerloo, also in the 1970s was in connection with the construction of the Jubilee line. A number of weekend possessions were required of the Stanmore branch of the Bakerloo at Baker St in order to construct the connections to the Jubilee. The location of these connections is such that a Queens Park - Elephant service could operate. Rather than just terminate the Stanmore branch trains at Finchley Road they were diverted (presumably with suitable pilot men) over the Met line and terminated in the Met platforms at Baker St. Thus Bakerloo passengers from Finchley Road and points north could complete a journey to southern Bakerloo destinations with just a single change of trains at Baker St. Only passengers travelling to & from St Johns Wood and Swiss Cottage were obliged to use a replacement bus service. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2006 7:39:21 GMT
I have a question about the old Elephant homes E1 and E4. In this thread Q8 explained their purpose districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=bakerloo&action=display&thread=1133627112&page=1However, as there didn't appear to be a speed control signal before the home signals as there is now, did E1 and E4 have full speed overlaps (circa 50mph), or low speed overlaps (circa 20-25mph) but without a preceding speed control? Just asking because I would have thought that a full speed overlap would have limited crossover capacity. |
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Post by Tom on Jun 10, 2006 12:11:48 GMT
E1 and E4 were the original signals from the line opening, and I doubt any data for their overlaps is available. I would expect that they ended at the crossover however.
Elephant was resignalled c.1940 at which point it gained the current cabin code BS.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2006 20:45:51 GMT
E1 and E4 were the original signals from the line opening, and I doubt any data for their overlaps is available. I would expect that they ended at the crossover however. Elephant was resignalled c.1940 at which point it gained the current cabin code BS. So maybe the 34tph was only run after it was resignalled? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2006 23:40:29 GMT
Having just stumbled across this thread, I have a few queries:
1. Why on earth were absolutely no signals whatsoever provided between the station starters at Stanmore and the Canons Park starter? I can understand not packing it full of signals due to the low service demand, but there isn't even a single home signal!
2. Following on from that, why are there home signals on all of the n/b approaches to stations from Wembley Park, but absolutely none on the s/b approaches?
3. Why is MG86 so far away from the points it controls?
4. The platform layout at Wembley Park is weird, to say the least - I can see why it was six-tracked to the burrowing junction. But why was it decided not to provide a shunt route from platform 5 to the sidings via 39 crossover?
5. Was it possible to clear MG89 without lighting the No.4 harbour lights?
6. Does SB 'MH' have the dubious distinction of being the only LT interlocking ever built whose sole purpose was to control shunt signals?
7. How many routes are available from MD33H? I see two possible: a main line s/b shunt into the loop via 43 crossover, and a main line s/b shunt into the yard via 42 crossover.
8. Is a frame description available for SB 'MD'? Reading this portion of the diagram is difficult because of all the push/pull notations.
9. How far away from the platform was BMX503d?
10. How was the handworked signal/trainstop used on the n/b near Waterloo? Was it designed to allow a stalled train to return to Lambeth North after a floodgate closure?
11. The diagramming of the signals at BR is quite fascinating - what were the rules surrounding the use of BR3?
12. Was the handworked signal/trainstop on the s/b between Lambeth North and B&R placed there to allow a train to escape if things went wrong at the terminus?
13. BAET stated that SB 'E' dated from the opening of the line, which presumably explains why there were no shunt signals. But what about the strange configuration of E1/E4?
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Post by mandgc on Oct 16, 2006 4:48:06 GMT
4 - "Weird Layout"
Platform 6, built in 1938, was in effect a NB Bay platform and replaced a Bay Platform on the SOUTH side of the Road bridge used for Football traffic. ( This platform was originally an Island Platform installed for the 1924 Exhibition traffic). Platform 6 Road continued on to join the Shed tracks. It was used, in the 1950s, by Met, trains terminating after the Morning Peak and laying over in the Shed until the Evening Peak and also by Football specials that lay over in the Shed till the end of the Game. The Shed was not used then for overnight stabling.
Southbound Met .trains terminating at Wembley ran Empty to Neasden Depot.
MG89. Without a Junction indication MG89 led to the SB Fast and with the right hand indication, led to the SB Local. MG 23 led to the Depot Road.
Another Crossover was in use by 1950 leading from Platform 5 to MG260 on the Depot Road and enabled a parallel move to be made - Platform 5 to the Depot Road at the same time as Platform 4 to the SB Fast.
In the 1950s Met trains used both 2 and 3 platforms as convenient and Met and Bakerloo 4 and 5 the same.
Bakerloo trains from the siding ran to Neasden Depot via 3 or 4 Platforms and the Flyunder or 4 Platform and on the Level (14 and 13 Crossovers) The Signalmen (and perhaps the WTT) were very flexible at that time.
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Post by mandgc on Oct 16, 2006 4:59:16 GMT
7 and 8 -
From the Signal Numbers it seems that only some of the Levers at Finchley Road - the ones which had a choice of route had the Push-Pull feature. (On the SB Fast MD1 had only one route (H) while MD2 had a choice (H or L) MD33H can only read one way - to the Goods Yard. I doubt if a Wrong Road move would be permitted to a Southbound Line. It could be used either to set back into the Yard or during Running Round in the Yard.
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Post by mandgc on Oct 19, 2006 0:06:10 GMT
10 - Those Hand Worked Train Stops !
These were provided for use during 'Single Line Working' together with the 'Fixed Red Lights'. These were oil lit lamps, normally kept in the Signal Box, (at least it was at Hyde Park Corner) and only put on the special bracket in the tunnel when required.
"Single Line Working" is a method of working Double Line traffic over one line if the other line is obstructed.
One 'Pilotman' personally authorises each train to occupy the 'Single Line' On some occasions at a junction or where Short Working trains are required to occupy the 'SL' two Pilotmen are appointed - one ('Station Pilotman' to control the Junction or shunting end and the other ('Section Pilotman') to control the rest of the 'SL' A Hand Signalman was appointed to mark the boundary between the two Sections but the Lamp and Train Stop were used in tube tunnels with restricted clearance in their place.
Trains running through the length of the 'SL' section would be authorised to proceed by the Station Pilotman and accompanied by the Section Pilotman. The Station Pilotman could then accompany a terminating train onto the 'SL' to clear the trailing crossover and return to the opposite line. When required he would authorise a returning through train (waiting at the Red Light) to come forward to the station.
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Post by mandgc on Oct 20, 2006 5:55:35 GMT
11 - BR3, Lambeth North-
BR3 appears to be a Short Range Colour Light Shunt Signal, Route 1 to the Southbound Line and Route 2 to the Depot Incline.
13 - Elephant & C.-
Signals E4A and E4B appear to be Short Range Colour Light Subsidiary Signals, E4A leading to the Southbound platform and E4B to the Northbound.
I see no reason for Shunt Signals - possibly they were Calling On Signals used before 1939 for coupling up Standard Stock trains.
E5 presumably applied to both routes over the crossover though there is no Route Indicator shown.
E2, E3, E13 and E15 again appear to be Colour Light Shunt Signals.
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 18, 2007 23:38:41 GMT
9. How far away from the platform was BMX503d? BUMP! Work was a bit slack today - and I discovered this thread a couple of days ago  Spent my lunch-break perusing the 3 yellow perils from '77, '78 and '79 concerning Baker Street (BM). I can answer this question, but I pose another in return...... BMX503 D was 308 feet from the start of platform 7 (SB Stanmore branch). It was replated from BMX503 D to BM1 with the introduction of the new Interlocking Machine in 1977 - ok, this presupposes that the signal didn't shift between 1939 and 1977. In return I humbly ask: When were A5030, A5051, A5052 installed on the SB from St J Wood, and A3941 on the NB from Regents Park? It took about an hour of drawing things out on paper to come up with an answer when BMX503 B became A503 B and (I think) A5030 became BMX503 A. Errrrr. ;D I'm sure someone in Kent is despairing.  |
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Post by Tom on Apr 19, 2007 7:34:49 GMT
9. How far away from the platform was BMX503d? When were A5030, A5051, A5052 installed on the SB from St J Wood, and A3941 on the NB from Regents Park? It took about an hour of drawing things out on paper to come up with an answer when BMX503 B became A503 B and (I think) A5030 became BMX503 A. Errrrr. ;D I'm sure someone in Kent is despairing. As they're round the bend signals, probably some time after 1953. |
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 19, 2007 15:23:24 GMT
As they're round the bend signals, probably some time after 1953. Ta for the date, now what do you mean by 'round the bend'?  Are these signals <in effect> a mix of headway splitters/repeaters whilst allowing a move to be held at them or are they overlap splitters - for A505, A503 when originally installed? I understand how A5051 and A5052 relate to A505; A5030 to A503 and A3991 to A399 - (well, thinking of GRs and control lengths) |
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Post by programmes1 on Apr 19, 2007 16:47:55 GMT
Also known as Stratford signals following the collision in the 1950's
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 19, 2007 17:11:47 GMT
Also known as Stratford signals following the collision in the 1950's <clunk> A large penny has dropped! ;D |
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