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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2006 22:35:58 GMT
Is there sufficient information available to draw the ELL? I'm curious to know what sort of infrastructure was available in the Surrey Docks area, along with the original links between the SER and LBSCR main lines at the southern termini.
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Post by Harsig on Feb 13, 2006 10:57:50 GMT
Is there sufficient information available to draw the ELL? I'm curious to know what sort of infrastructure was available in the Surrey Docks area, along with the original links between the SER and LBSCR main lines at the southern termini. I don't know if this diagram will cover everything you want to know but it shows the arrangements as they were circa 1950. East London Line 1950
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2006 11:55:20 GMT
Thanks Harsig - it shows exactly what I was trying to see.
I was curious as to how the ELL was originally linked to the two main lines at the New Crosses; so far as I know these links will be rebuilt almost as they appeared in 1950.
Now for a few queries:
1. I've not seen something like ET20 and K46 before - how precisely were these two signals interlocked with one another?
2. Why was RET10 fixed at caution, like RWR1a at Boston Manor? And why did it have a warning stick?
3. Why did Shoreditch have two crossovers?
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Post by Harsig on Feb 13, 2006 15:02:15 GMT
Thanks Harsig - it shows exactly what I was trying to see. I was curious as to how the ELL was originally linked to the two main lines at the New Crosses; so far as I know these links will be rebuilt almost as they appeared in 1950. Now for a few queries: 1. I've not seen something like ET20 and K46 before - how precisely were these two signals interlocked with one another? 2. Why was RET10 fixed at caution, like RWR1a at Boston Manor? And why did it have a warning stick? The relevant section of the signalling notice for Canal Junction says the following 3. Why did Shoreditch have two crossovers? Its not clear exactly where No. 15 crossover was. It may well have been closer to Whitechapel than Shoreditch. In either case it was almost certainly provided to facilitate running round trains.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2006 17:45:18 GMT
As regards to your question about RET10, it's probably fixed at caution for the same reason as many others on BR. There's no point operating it for a few slow trains!
Sam
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Feb 13, 2006 19:02:16 GMT
Shoreditch only had 1 crossover, the 2nd crossover (15) at Whitechapel was for Goods trains going to Liverpool Street, to pass a train at Whitechapel, when in the off peak all trains would use the Northbound platform.
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Post by mandgc on Mar 13, 2006 0:15:43 GMT
New Cross -
Was not the ELL platform a Dead End and the Repeater Signal (RET 20) fixed at caution as a safety measure ?
Would the Crossover, K45 (worked by the Southern Box) have to have been released from Canal Junction before a movement could be made to or from the Main Line?
Note that the repeater for K 45 is a Banner Repeater in the Main Line style.
It is rather unusual for the individual heads of a Junction Signal to be shown as worked from two separate signal boxes,
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Post by mandgc on Mar 13, 2006 0:22:05 GMT
Shoreditch-
Was the second crossover (actually near Whitechapel) used for running round the Goods trains terminating or starting from the Low Level sidings at Spitalfields Goods ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2006 21:00:25 GMT
BUMP. This diagram has been updated, and is now in colour. It looks very nice 1. Where all of the signals on the ELL single-aspect searchlights? 2. What kind of regulations existed for presenting/accepting trains between Canal Junction SB and New Cross Gate SB? 3. How was ground frame 'ER' released?' 4. I see that 15 crossover has been moved to a more logical place at Whitechapel now. But what about 25 crossover - why would it be placed in the platforms as opposed to outside them? 5. Other than B28's slot on the down junction home signal providing access to the s/b ELL, what other arrangements existed for passing trains between LU metals and Eastern Region metals?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Mar 12, 2007 12:52:22 GMT
Ages and ages ago:
2. What kind of regulations existed for presenting/accepting trains between Canal Junction SB and New Cross Gate SB?
I've been sorting out piles of paperwork at home - have found the ELL Signalling Regulations from 1947, and the alteration notice from 1950 after resignalling. I think that there is Regulation 1J, which covers exactly this situation. I can remember that it was significantly rewritten after the resignalling.
What version would you like to see - or conversely I could post a photo-copy of the Regs?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 1:41:40 GMT
More ages and ages ago: I've been sorting out piles of paperwork at home - have found the ELL Signalling Regulations from 1947, and the alteration notice from 1950 after resignalling. I think that there is Regulation 1J, which covers exactly this situation. I can remember that it was significantly rewritten after the resignalling. What version would you like to see - or conversely I could post a photo-copy of the Regs? The newer one, for presentation/acceptance of trains after the resignalling
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 15, 2008 2:12:19 GMT
Gosh - I'd better revisit that stratum of the library.
Off the top of my head I think I can find the signalling regs from 1927: Canal Junction, New Cross 'A' and New Cross Gate Yard; 1929: Canal Junction, New Cross Gate Yard and North Kent East Jcn; 1947 and 1950. ('47 and '50 being both Canal Junction and North Kent East). As far as I can remember it's *not* any of Walker's train describers, train bells, magazine train describers; probably a combination of slots.
I'll get me shovel and start digging - because I think this information is now contained in the 'library within an library' - I've got filing cabinets that lived previous lives as TARDISs.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 17, 2008 17:41:13 GMT
Ok then - here goes: This comes from Notice 362/50 - Regulations for Signalling trains over the ELL between Canal Junction, New Cross Gate Yard, and North Kent East Junction Signal Boxes, also between Deptford Road and Canal Juction and from East London Up Junction to Deptford Road - originally issued in 1947 or the original issue of 6/7/47, unfortunately for my typing fingers the 1950 amendments were not a complete recast: 1G Northbound Trains New Cross to Canal Junction via Loop Line (1947 version) (i) As each train approches New Cross station for the ELL, the signalman at North Kent East must give the prescribed train description signal to Canal Junction and this signal must be acknowledged by repetition when the line is clear for the train to proceed. (ii) In consequence of the infrequency of traffic over this section, track-circuits may prove inoperative; Signalmen must therefore observe the following special instructions: Before allowing a train to pass on to the northbound East London Line via No K. 9 points, the signal man must first have recieved the train out of section signal for the previous train from the Signalman at Canal Junction.
The Signalman at North Kent East Junction must also satisfy himself that the train for the northbound ELL has cleared K 9 points before allowing a movement to take place.
1950 version, just renames the Northbound ELL the 'Up loop' in clause (ii). 1J Signalling of Southbound trains to the Southern Railway between Canal Junction and North Kent East Junction Boxes(1947 version) (i) Whenever requiring to pass a train from the ELL to the Down Local (North Kent) Line the SIgnalman at Canal Junction, providing the diagram shows that the line is clear , must give the prescribed train description signal and, when that signal has been acknowleged by repetition , operate the 'king' lever (No 19) to the reverse position. This will cause an indication 'Lock Free' to show in North Kent East Junction Box, which will then permit the signalman in the latter box to operate the junction points and signals for the train to proceeed to the Down Local (North Kent) Line. WHen this has happened the Canal Junction Signalman may operate Nos 3 and 4 signals for the train to proceed. When the train has passed clear of the ELL the signalman at North Kent East Junction box must restore No 45 points to the normal position and then send the train out of section signal (2-1), which must be acknowledged by the Canal Junction signalman, who will then operate the 'king' lever (No 19) to the normal position. (ii) In consequence of the infrequency of traffic over this section, track-circuits may prove inoperative; Signalmen must therefore observe the following special instructions:- No 45 points must not be restored to normal after the passing of trains until the Down Local Line track circuit No 77 has been occupied and cleared by the movement, or until the Signalman at North Kent East Junction has recieved information from the New Cross Station Foreman that the train is clear of No 45 points.
*phew* - I'm gonna have a breather before I type up the 1950 version - watch this space. ;D
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 17, 2008 18:30:46 GMT
Right then, the 1950 version: 1J Signalling of Southbound trains to the Southern Railway between Canal Junction and North Kent East Junction Boxes(i) When requiring to pass a train from the ELL to the Down Local (North Kent) Line, privided that the diagram shows that the line is clear, the Canal Junction Signalman must give the prescribed Train Description signal and, when that signal has been acknowledged by repetition, operate release lever No 21 to the 'mid' position. This will release and free the locking in North Kent East Junction signal box and enable No 45 crossover to be reversed. When No 45 crossover is reversed, an indication 'Line Clear to the Southern Region' will be displayed in Canal Junction signal box and the Canal Junction signalman must then complete the movement of lever no 21 to the 'reverse' position; this will lock crossover lever No 45 in North Kent East junction signal box in the 'reverse' position. Signal K 46 can then be lowered by the North Kent East Junction Signalman. The Canal Junction Signalman must then lower signals ET4 and ET5 for the train to proceed. (ii) When the diagram in Canal Junction signal box shows that the train has passed clear of the single line, the Canal Junction Signalman must place no 21 lever in the 'mid' position. This will release the locking and display a 'lock free' indication in North Kent East Junction signal box, and enable No 45 crossover to be replaced to the 'normal' position. An indication 'K.45N' will be displayed in Canal Junction signal box when No 45 crossover is restored to the 'normal' position. The Canal Junction Signalman must then move no 21 lever to the 'normal' position, and permit the working of London Transport trains to and from New Cross to be resumed. The 'in consequence' paragraph is the same; and the 1950 amended regulation ends with: The North Kent East Junction Signalman must then send Train out of Section signal (2-1), which must be acknowledged by the Canal Junction Signalman. I'm fairly sure that the signalling notices for North Kent East opening are somewhere around on the net - if you want any further information (on the Southern side of the tracks) I think I've got sculling around the non-LU library the various editions of 'Regulations for Train Signalling on Double Lines where Block Apparatus Not Provided' before the 1960 green book came out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2008 20:49:03 GMT
Thank you very much - I love reading stuff like this
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Aug 17, 2008 20:56:35 GMT
I have to say that I have been interested in the history of the 'BR' (and predecessor) and LT/Underground connections for say 35 years? This has been very enlightening thank you!
I know that it is off-topic, but does anyone remember the 'siding' connection between I think it was the WB Central and what would have been the Up Relief at Ealing Broadway, visible from the District/Picc bridge? That was decades ago of course! It rather reminded me of the original unelectrified connection between the NLL and Up Windsor at Richmond, discussed not that long ago on DD's.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Aug 17, 2008 22:01:16 GMT
I have to say that I have been interested in the history of the 'BR' (and predecessor) and LT/Underground connections for say 35 years? This has been very enlightening thank you! Pleasure - however the text is but the half of it when you factor in the arrangements for between Deptford Road and Canal Junction; and East London Up Junction to Deptford Road. The former covers the switching in of a ground frame at Deptford Road with 5-5-5 and even more unusually implicit perpetual acceptance under the Warning and a block-instrument-only-operated signal under the ELL Up starting signal! This arrangement became even odder in signalling terms with the 1950 reissue/resignalling with plungers and keyswitches sprouting up. I know that it is off-topic, but does anyone remember the 'siding' connection between I think it was the WB Central and what would have been the Up Relief at Ealing Broadway, visible from the District/Picc bridge? I don't (being a mere stripling ); but I'm sure I remember reading something about it ages in a collection of GWR <spit> signalling notices. Exactly where I can't honestly remember.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 17, 2008 22:23:01 GMT
I know that it is off-topic, but does anyone remember the 'siding' connection between I think it was the WB Central and what would have been the Up Relief at Ealing Broadway, visible from the District/Picc bridge? I don't (being a mere stripling ); but I'm sure I remember reading something about it ages in a collection of GWR <spit> signalling notices. Exactly where I can't honestly remember. I think I know the siding that would have been the connection, but I don't ever remember the connection being there. In the early days this was a double track facing connection to the GW up and down relief lines. There were also similar connections at North Acton Junction and (I believe) a signle track connection at the Hammersmith Hospital Flyover.
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