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Post by Hutch on Jan 17, 2008 19:52:26 GMT
Just following up on the chaos resulting from the dramatic crash landing at LHR. Along with short-haul cancellations and other delays, the BBC announce that the Piccadilly's T4 station is also closed.
Is this because they don't want anymore passengers going to T4 or is there a possibility that the HC to T4 tunnel might have been compromised by the impact. Maybe just procedure in this case?
Regards, Hutch
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jan 17, 2008 20:26:31 GMT
I can't find anything on the LU site travel news that T4 is or was closed - it certainly didn't show on the live travel map. It conceivably could have been masked by the delays caused due to the problems at Oakwood and earlier Russell Square.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2008 20:26:52 GMT
It doesn't currently say anything on the TfL website about it being closed, it's only reporting the delays from the earlier defective train. I'd imagine it's simply because the terminal is effectively shut, though that's not an official fact.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2008 20:27:49 GMT
I can't find anything on the LU site travel news that T4 is or was closed - it certainly didn't show on the live travel map. It conceivably could have been masked by the delays caused due to the problems at Oakwood and earlier Russell Square. ..and Earl's Court! It was effectively the same problem, evolving, the whole way along.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Jan 17, 2008 20:41:17 GMT
There is no compromise to the tunnel, although T4 trains were tipping out at H. X and running empty to T4 were they lay over and depart on time and pick up again at H123 I beleive there are no flights from T4 this evening now and the station remains closed.
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Post by soupdragon on Jan 17, 2008 21:24:42 GMT
My office is around 400 yds from Hatton Cross and BA038 went right over the top of our office, but none of us noticed it was that low. The radio kept on saying that the A30 was closed but it wasnt. I think that the authorities were just trying to keep the general public away from the area. I drove past the scene on the A30 at around 4pm and you could clearly see the B777 strewn sideways across the runway.
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Post by c5 on Jan 18, 2008 0:13:34 GMT
The terminal area was full was the reason given.
I hope there's a lot of standing room at T5!
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 18, 2008 0:59:57 GMT
A lucky escape for everyone involved me thinks. I know I'm not the first to say this, but whats happened to the Picc recently? There have been loads of delays, signal failures and defective trains! Don't tell me the 73s are going down the pan?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2008 1:23:05 GMT
i used to be a security agent 7 yaers ago in the airfeild at lhr and about half a mile from the site so a narrow escapae by 7 years and half a mile for me!!!!
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Post by c5 on Jan 18, 2008 1:23:11 GMT
A lucky escape for everyone involved me thinks. I know I'm not the first to say this, but whats happened to the Picc recently? There have been loads of delays, signal failures and defective trains! Don't tell me the 73s are going down the pan? When was the last defective train, the one that got gapped at South Kensington? No more than usual on the Picc though.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 18, 2008 1:32:45 GMT
I think I heard there was a 'broken down train' on the radio between Arnos Grove-Cockfosters-but you know what the radio is like!
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Post by c5 on Jan 18, 2008 1:36:50 GMT
I think I heard there was a 'broken down train' on the radio between Arnos Grove-Cockfosters-but you know what the radio is like! There was today it started off being poorly at Earls Court (or somewhere west of Hyde Park) and got to Russell Sq where it dies again. I think it took about 2 hours to get to Arnos!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2008 2:46:25 GMT
They wanted to get it into the depot at Cockfosters, from the Oakwood end. However, I *gather* that they could not uncouple the trains once at Oakwood, for some reason, and they spent a long time trying to do that and, when they admitted defeat, they had to get someone to go and do something manually to the points? I didn't really understand the full explanation but someone else may know it. As far as I'm aware it was Earl's Court it broke down, under its own steam it got to Russell Square, but then the following train had to couple up to push it to Oakwood - which was extremely slow going. It went into the depot somewhere around 17:15, in the end - we got the first service alert at approx 13:30, I think. Though I may be misremembering that, I'm trying to remember what I wrote on the first batch of whiteboards! I went down to the platform at Wood Green at 14:30 and things weren't stable enough for me to go back up until an hour later. I don't think we had an eastbound service through Wood Green between 14:00 (train at Russell Square, possibly King's X) and 15:00 (the defective train having come through about 10 mins before). When I got to Arnos Grove at about 16:10, the train was at Oakwood and the service was suspended Arnos-Cockfosters. Since my car was at Cockfosters, out came the Hi-Vi and I ended up doing overtime until services resumed just over an hour later.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 18, 2008 3:47:48 GMT
Two trains coupled together would be too long to fit in the platform at Oakwood. Basically before the shunt move could be pushed off the train would have required to have been proved to be wholly in the platform thus the points would have been locked because the train would not have cleared the track in rear. The points would then require to be thrown 'on the ground' by a signal lineman and possibly clipped and scotched too before the shunt could be made if throwing the points did not clear the stick. It's been a few years now since I worked at Oakwood so I can't quite remember the 'table of controls' for the site. No doubt one of my former colleagues from Ash House signals would have dealt.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2008 4:15:19 GMT
They did say that they needed someone special in and that was part of the reson for the delay - they'd been hoping to uncouple so hadn't arranged for him (or her!) to be there already. I believe it was mentioned that he'd have to go and throw a switch or enter a code or something somewhere on the station, and then that the points would have to be scotched and clipped, although I don't know if that was handled by the SS or by the outside person.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 18, 2008 4:57:07 GMT
They did say that they needed someone special in and that was part of the reson for the delay - they'd been hoping to uncouple so hadn't arranged for him (or her!) to be there already. I believe it was mentioned that he'd have to go and throw a switch or enter a code or something somewhere on the station, and then that the points would have to be scotched and clipped, although I don't know if that was handled by the SS or by the outside person. S/he probably went to the IMR first to check the state of the signalling as that is standard procedure. The east end of the Picc is computer controlled and a double length train would have given it a slight headache. There are not many female Technical Officers on the combine but there certainly is/was one at Ash House, a former colleague and a very nice young lady who worked with me occasionally during her apprenticeship.
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Post by c5 on Jan 18, 2008 12:11:19 GMT
They wanted to get it into the depot at Cockfosters, from the Oakwood end. However, I *gather* that they could not uncouple the trains once at Oakwood, for some reason, and they spent a long time trying to do that and, when they admitted defeat, they had to get someone to go and do something manually to the points? I didn't really understand the full explanation but someone else may know it. As far as I'm aware it was Earl's Court it broke down, under its own steam it got to Russell Square, but then the following train had to couple up to push it to Oakwood - quote] Wonder why didnt they just reverse it E to W at HPC, KX or Wd.Grn? Picc control have been going downhill for months now. That place really needs a shake up. If you have only been with LUL for only a few months, how can you make a comment like that? There maybe various reasons why that train wasnt reversed. Sometimes they just die (well okay it did at Russell Sq) when they want to reverse it, or there may not have been a signal operator due to staff shortage.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 18, 2008 12:22:16 GMT
Is Smudger an LUL employee then? If so he needs a trip to the control room to get a feel for the pressures associated with keeping the railway running to time in today's H&S conscious environment!
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Post by c5 on Jan 18, 2008 12:25:05 GMT
Is Smudger an LUL employee then? If so he needs a trip to the control room to get a feel for the pressures associated with keeping the railway running to time in today's H&S conscious environment! Sadly with the advent of Trackernet (a graphics heavy version of Tracker, to trick people into thinking everthing is high tech), everyone thinks they are a service controller or operator now!
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 18, 2008 12:51:41 GMT
I know I would like to take my 17 year old son to see an active Control Room...is it possible to contact a Manager and get an official pass? I will wear my journalism hat if necessary!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2008 12:51:42 GMT
Wonder why didnt they just reverse it E to W at HPC, KX or Wd.Grn? Picc control have been going downhill for months now. That place really needs a shake up. Due to the double length, one presumes - although at HPC that may not have been a problem since I think it may have still been a single train at that point. Wood Green is the only site of three I'm familiar with, and I don't *think* the siding there (which is the only way to reverse E-W) is long enough to take the extended train? Plus it was nearly at Cockfosters by that point so doing so would have been rather pointless.. I assume something similar applies to Kings Cross - not easy to get a double-length over the points, and Cockfosters at that point is probably closer than a lengthy reversing maneouvre and crawling back through the city - fouling up all the westbound trains in the process. As usual most of this is extrapolated from what little things I do know.
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Jan 18, 2008 12:55:21 GMT
I have never been into Wood Green siding, though I am sure that it is not long enough as UG has suggested. Also, I have experienced first hand how long it used to take to reverse at WG in normal service.
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Post by c5 on Jan 18, 2008 13:44:59 GMT
At some of those locations you would need to trip past signals to reverse, ie at Kings Cross, trip past the EB starter, so that the train is to the east of the wrong road starter.
As to visiting a control room, write to the press office, unless you still have some contacts?! I doubt they would let you visit Earl's Court as it looks like a bombsite, with tin foil on the roof and cables hanging down all over the shop the last time I was there!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2008 14:27:13 GMT
Sadly with the advent of Trackernet (a graphics heavy version of Tracker, to trick people into thinking everthing is high tech), everyone thinks they are a service controller or operator now! Yeah and as soon as an incident happens everyone sits and watches tracker - and calls up with "oh so helpful" comments, fortunately to the service manager not me!!! Had one a little while ago where we had emergency engineering works, we'd known it was going to happen for about half an hour before it did so had time to make some kind of arrangements....then while it was going ahead (and taking much longer than we were originally told) some manager called up asking about why we had a train stalled in the section......err it had no passengers on and was being used as protection for the work to take place!!!!!
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Post by c5 on Jan 18, 2008 14:54:04 GMT
Sadly with the advent of Trackernet (a graphics heavy version of Tracker, to trick people into thinking everthing is high tech), everyone thinks they are a service controller or operator now! Yeah and as soon as an incident happens everyone sits and watches tracker - and calls up with "oh so helpful" comments, fortunately to the service manager not me!!! Had one a little while ago where we had emergency engineering works, we'd known it was going to happen for about half an hour before it did so had time to make some kind of arrangements....then while it was going ahead (and taking much longer than we were originally told) some manager called up asking about why we had a train stalled in the section......err it had no passengers on and was being used as protection for the work to take place!!!!! Ambulances were once sent to one location, they were all empty trains and had been moved forward to allow other passenger trains to move up to platforms and detrain! They should just keep their noses out and keep to harrassing station staff over keeping the manual gate closed or sacking staff over kit kats...
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Jan 18, 2008 15:40:34 GMT
They should just keep their noses out and keep to harrassing station staff over keeping the manual gate closed or sacking staff over kit kats... N-o-o-o ! ! ! Let them stay hiding behind their desks.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 18, 2008 16:29:28 GMT
At some of those locations you would need to trip past signals to reverse, ie at Kings Cross, trip past the EB starter, so that the train is to the east of the wrong road starter. Yes tripping past a signal to reverse a double length train is not recommended without a lineman present and obviously on site officials to liaise with control and fully understand what is to be undertaken. My thinking would be to pass the starter normally and have to trip past the wrong road starter after throwing the points on the ground and probably clipping and scotching although IIRC King's Cross has route securing. Of course a train of double length would have to stop beyond the station limits and car markers to clear the crossover which is another problem! King's Cross did have a lineman's depot until staff shortages closed it leaving the nearest Picc depots at Earls Court control room and Ash House. In today's H&S world and blame culture with regard to delays no-one would probably want to sanction such a move and exacerbate the delay or suddenly discover that the local official was not qualified for one reason or another to oversee such a movement efficiently or at all. Unlike the old days when station supervisors were willing and able to tackle such events with confidence I don't think many are nowadays. Hyde Park Corner could, I think, take a double length train as the siding is almost the entire length between HPC and Down Street but again I would expect a lineman to be required from Earl's Court or more likely Bollo House and the only way is by road! Other than that the same problems of overseeing the movement etc. So best to keep the train on a single road and put it away as directly as possible. Of course we don't know the exact details of the problem or the proposed means of resolution in detail so it is difficult to comment further. Earls Court really should've been closed and relocated elsewhere. I suggested that to the project manager when the signal operators diagrams were being renewed. My thinking had been to divert all the signal controls and indications, communications and other systems into a multiplex transmission system and simply pipe it to a remote site. This was even possible for the tunnel telephones, I was told by contractors undertaking the surveys for the installation of additional equipment that it was possible when they were looking for more room at the controllers desk. If there are cables everywhere now I expect that stage two of the refurbishment is under way, the last I had to do with it was to reposition the clocks behind the diagram panels in 2004.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 18, 2008 19:06:40 GMT
The terminal area was full was the reason given. I hope there's a lot of standing room at T5! There is in the Terminal building!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 18, 2008 19:08:48 GMT
There are not many female Technical Officers on the combine but there certainly is/was one at Ash House, a former colleague and a very nice young lady who worked with me occasionally during her apprenticeship. She's still there AFAIK - and her brother was with me on the Bakerloo.
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Post by c5 on Jan 19, 2008 2:32:58 GMT
Well, I think you ought to speak with your DSM at your P&D (or sooner) and ask for a visit up there. Earl's Court does have a reputation for being a bad place, (spread around by managers that are too scared to go in their as there as staff with opinions on how to run a railway, not a branch of MacDonalds,) but it is mostly un-founded. It is a very depressing place to work owing to the building design, layout and noise.
Most of the controller's job is last minute owing to the poor information tools available, and the capability of other staff on the line, granted some staff are better than others, but this is the same network wide and there are worse staff overall on other lines!
And if we ran the railway according to the train operators, there would never be a train!
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