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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 20, 2006 5:23:39 GMT
0517: Central line-suspended completely due to a signalling systems failure.
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Post by c5 on Nov 20, 2006 6:29:59 GMT
0517: Central line-suspended completely due to a signalling systems failure. Spose thats what you get for putting all your eggs in one basket.....  |
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Post by edb on Nov 20, 2006 13:15:34 GMT
Spose thats what you get for putting all your eggs in one basket..... Thats the second time in a couple of weeks that's been said. Why? Whats it mean? |
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Post by c5 on Nov 20, 2006 13:20:54 GMT
The entire line is controlled from one location in West London, whcih means that if a problem affects that building then the whole line suffers. Not to say that that is the reason for todays problems.
Also other lines like to Victoria can suffer likewise.
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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 20, 2006 13:35:14 GMT
I dont know when it resumed, but at 1300 there were severe delays.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 14:31:20 GMT
It certainly begs the question of whether or not the upcoming resignalling of the SSL should concentrate control of the whole lot into a single IECC. The last thing we need is another Kings Cross-style shutdown where the IECC is evacuated...
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Post by agoodcuppa on Nov 20, 2006 16:55:04 GMT
I'm sure many people could tell you, but the language wouldn't be suitable for a family audience. ;D ;D |
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Post by compsci on Nov 20, 2006 17:30:58 GMT
At least some ability to control signals from somewhere other than the IECC should be provided. As there are several slave panels in the area controlled by KX it was still possible to provide some form of service, even though that did involve the use of numerous post it notes to compensate for the lack of automatic tracking of train descriptions. (I heard that directly from the train service director of FCC).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 18:37:09 GMT
The Central Line does offer this. ELCP's are located at stations that are in controlled areas. Duty managers are trained in their use. So if a signal computer failure, some sort of service should be able to be operated.
The Central Line recovered to the outer sections first, so I feel that we also had a train radio problem (or something related). Only a hunch.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 19:46:00 GMT
twas the fault of schedules, their shiny new timetable wasnt compatible with
the local site computers, the first passenger train went through the pipe at
08.30, ho ho ho, never mind, they are gonna try the same timetable tomorrow,
just to make sure it was that!!!!!!!!
still, look on the bright side, it only costed out as £850,000 worth of
delay
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 20:03:53 GMT
even worse from being at the thick end of it all...
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Post by Tubeboy on Nov 20, 2006 20:11:23 GMT
The station staff must have found today stressful.  |
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Post by edb on Nov 20, 2006 21:23:53 GMT
The station staff must have found today stressful. From the number of Metro's left at EBDY this eveninig i suggest they just shut the grilles and hid ;D ;D ;D ;D Cant blame them either. (  i am not suggesting this was done) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 21:25:56 GMT
I for one would have liked to have hid from the public eye, my boss, however, had other ideas...
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Post by edb on Nov 20, 2006 21:30:29 GMT
The entire line is controlled from one location in West London, whcih means that if a problem affects that building then the whole line suffers. Not to say that that is the reason for todays problems. Also other lines like to Victoria can suffer likewise. Thank you. I have to say as a Daily Central Commuter the service has beens sliding down a very slippery slope in the last few weeks  It must be after that award, in that manner i expect the Jubilee to down the pan in the nxt few weeks ;D ;D  ;D  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 21:48:52 GMT
Daily user here, I had to take it six times today. Instead of the reassuring 1 min. until the next train which is standard practice, it would be anything between 10 and 20 min. Then, after waiting 13 min. you'll find yourself having to wait for the second or third train because the long awaited train is full... Apart from the un-Central-like headways I think I noticed them coming into stations differently. Instead of the usual thundering into it it would sometimes come in slow and accelerate halfway for a couple of seconds. Was the line run in manual mode today? Would that partially explain the increased headways? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 22:01:54 GMT
I would suspect that any control problems at Wood Lane would definitely necessitate Coded Manual; this is probably why the headways were so large, as the T/Ops all working together in CM are unlikely to approach the regularity of ATO, mainly because of differing driving practices.
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Post by bwhughes on Nov 20, 2006 22:07:20 GMT
I suppose you are right in that front!
What I think should be done is to avoid being over-reliant on the ATO - the big folly was that everything was dependant on a single computer system which temporarily conked out - and have a backup system that enables the signals to easily be operated in the conventional way if the automatic system goes wrong.
And there probably ought to be more awareness and familiarity with the manual operation of 92TS - so that if the ATO has failed and the signals have to be operated in the conventional way, the service can still be run with better efficiency than it was today.
PS: Is there any possibility of the Central IECC being vunerable to computer viruses?
- I doubt that the system would be connected to the net in much way at all, but computers controlling mass transport could be a target of Internet terrorists in the future who wish to cause economic damage to the capital (and the country as a whole)
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Post by mandgc on Nov 20, 2006 22:16:01 GMT
- - - meanwhile the former MandGC Joint Line continued with its Normal Service. |
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Nov 20, 2006 22:29:48 GMT
- I doubt that the system would be connected to the net in much way at all, but computers controlling mass transport could be a target of Internet terrorists in the future who wish to cause economic damage to the capital (and the country as a whole) I know you are making a serious point, which I agree with, but I just can't help thinking of 'The Italian Job' here........ |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2006 23:16:14 GMT
Yes, Coded Manual would certainly make sense.
I think they were doing short turns as well. The PA kept hammering on about how everyone should take the first available train, even if it wasn't for their destination. I believe that is usually a sign of short turns somewhere.
By the way, I doubt the headways would only be caused by CM operation. Headways of 5 min. due to CM I can understand. Headways of 18 min. solely caused by CM seem unlikely to me, it seems a lot of problems piled up. Increased headways -> full trains -> increased dwell times etc...
By the way, I thought CM operation is still used from time to time to make sure drivers stay trained for occasions like these?
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Post by alstom1996 on Nov 20, 2006 23:41:22 GMT
Yes I thought on Sundays that drivers were allowed to drive manually if they wanted to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 8:18:48 GMT
Yes I thought on Sundays that drivers were allowed to drive manually if they wanted to. Open sections only and only if the service is running to book. |
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Post by edb on Nov 21, 2006 12:55:58 GMT
I'm sure an earlier thread said this was being extended to tunneled sections
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Post by tubeprune on Nov 21, 2006 15:58:42 GMT
The probelm started when they tried to upload a new timetable early Monday morning. It crashed the main computers and locked them up so they couldn't even reload the old timetable. They then started phoning round to get people in to operate local control panels so they could signal trains at each site. By 06:30 they had local services at the line ends but could not run a through service because the LCP at Queensway was out of service. They had to clip & scotch there for through running. They got the old timetable back into the computer by 07:15 but, of course, the crews are all still at depots waiting to get trains out at the new timetable times - result -chaos. Through service finally got going just before 09:00 when they had 50% of trains in service. They were still trying to sort out the mess with crews late into the evening. Not a good day.
There have been troubles before but not as bad as this one. The Central Line is the Underground's first fully computer operated line and it suffers all the problems of being first. The technology is now over 10 years old and this is a long time in computing. This must have cost Metronet a fortune. I expect they will have to replace all the hardware and software within a few years.
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Post by c5 on Nov 21, 2006 16:11:01 GMT
Well this could be fun at arbitration. Perhaps there was a problem with the Timetable Tapes/Discs, that caused the problem. If that is the case is LU to blame...?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 16:49:19 GMT
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6169570.stmApparently, Metronet could be fined for over £1M just for the Central Line case while the Circle etc. engineering overrun would only be £100.000. I guess overruns may be valued differently because 'they can always happen' while perhaps errors like the Central Line could have been prevented. Best way to prevent a thing like this would seem to be an extra computer standby with a standard timetable as a fallback. A 'simple' timetable utilising 75% of the trains and headways of 5 min. instead of the usual 100% and 2 min. would have meant a considerably smaller disruption.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 21:13:43 GMT
Was the Central Line on Coded Manual again today? The "minor delays due to signalling" lasted all day and on the 2 trains I took, t/ops seemed to be actually focused at the controls instead of sitting on an armchair as per norm!
The actual running felt very much like ATO with trains flying into stations as usual.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2006 21:20:11 GMT
we were indeed in CM... hopefully, all should be sorted tomorrow.... The actual bill is making its way to relevant party; It's only £850,000...
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Nov 21, 2006 21:20:45 GMT
They were running a special timetable,core Hainault-Ealing service with North Acton-Ruislip and Leytonstone-Epping shuttles
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i am not suggesting this was done)
;D 
