rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 19, 2019 19:43:55 GMT
Is that you in the Gorilla suit Chris?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 19, 2019 20:15:21 GMT
It dances better than I can!
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Post by metrider on Dec 20, 2019 12:40:23 GMT
Surprised Driver(s) didn't notice 8 cars instead of 7 displayed on the TCMS (Train Control Management Screen). In fact the TCMS would surely be the ideal place for a safeguard... If it threw up a warning when a Line/Destination incompatible with the train configuration was selected then that would be hard to miss.
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Post by goldenarrow on Dec 20, 2019 14:50:00 GMT
Surprised Driver(s) didn't notice 8 cars instead of 7 displayed on the TCMS (Train Control Management Screen). In fact the TCMS would surely be the ideal place for a safeguard... If it threw up a warning when a Line/Destination incompatible with the train configuration was selected then that would be hard to miss. Which it doesn’t, so it can’t.
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Post by alpinejohn on Dec 20, 2019 15:38:54 GMT
Amusingly when I first spotted this thread, rather than instantly assuming something went wrong, I began wondering if TFL were quietly evaluating whether Circle line stations could be adapted to accommodate 8 car trains.
OK loads of platforms may need selective door opening at both ends of the train and stopping points and signalling would need adjustment, but as the Circle line still experiences serious peak hour crowding - even when there is a "Good service" - running eight coach trains would actually deliver a massive increase in capacity. Indeed I bet most commuters would actually quite welcome this becoming the norm.
As Clarkson is known to say "How hard can it be?"
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 20, 2019 15:58:53 GMT
It would create more problems than it would solve at the likes of Notting Hill Gate, Bayswater, Paddington & Baker Street as you’d need to have whole carriages cut out - anyone in an affected carriage would need to move into the next one to alight and that would be impossible to do at busy times.
I don’t know how tight the platforms are on the Hammersmith branch but in any case I doubt Edgware Road could cope with 8 car trains coming & going in all directions.
How hard can it be? It was hard enough getting 7 cars to fit!
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Post by MoreToJack on Dec 21, 2019 0:07:42 GMT
Running a service with S8s west of Baker Street would be impossible. Quite aside from the door cut-out issues, they won’t fit at Edgware Road or Hammersmith without fouling points (S7s are extremely tight as it is). Whilst they can run to both locations in emergencies (they haven’t been west of Edgware Road but have been round the Inner Rail) it would be extremely disruptive to do this routinely and in service, and any capacity increases from an additional car would quickly be lost by reducing TPH.
The east end is more viable, but won’t happen (there aren’t enough, for one).
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Post by MoreToJack on Dec 21, 2019 1:56:13 GMT
Just to clarify, a procedure existed at Hammersmith to reverse an S8 under legacy signalling if absolutely necessary (it never was). I don’t know if this has been transferred to CBTC but I would imagine so (the logic is the same, just with a different way of working). Either way, there’s a few options available at Edgware Road and all would be preferred, as would reversing at High Street.
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Post by t697 on Dec 21, 2019 13:41:17 GMT
Just to clarify, a procedure existed at Hammersmith to reverse an S8 under legacy signalling if absolutely necessary (it never was). I don’t know if this has been transferred to CBTC but I would imagine so (the logic is the same, just with a different way of working). Either way, there’s a few options available at Edgware Road and all would be preferred, as would reversing at High Street. I think the CBTC is programmed so it can't grant a Movement Authority for an S8 to proceed west of the reversing berth just west of Edgware Road, except for it to go onwards via High St Ken for moves towards Ealing etc. So to go to Hammersmith (H&C) it would have to be in Restricted Manual all the way and there's a restriction saying not to do that! Reverse in Baker St 6 or at Edgware Road.
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Post by t697 on Dec 21, 2019 13:51:58 GMT
Surprised Driver(s) didn't notice 8 cars instead of 7 displayed on the TCMS (Train Control Management Screen). In fact the TCMS would surely be the ideal place for a safeguard... If it threw up a warning when a Line/Destination incompatible with the train configuration was selected then that would be hard to miss. There was originally a requirement to run S7 trains in passenger service from Baker St to Harrow and back for stabling at Neasden, rather than running as empty stock which is the current actual practice. For some but not all of these trips there were H&C Trips in the TCMS/CIS. For others, Met Trips would be selected. There has been no move to make the available CIS Trips be software interlocked with the train length. I'm not sure it would have stopped this particular incident. As the train runs from Neasden as empty stock, the driver may likely have selected 'Not in Service' rather than whatever Circle trip it becomes at Baker St. Indeed since the train is handed from Met to C&H driver, the Met driver wouldn't necessarily know its Circle destination specifically. So while such a software feature could have flagged it to the C&H driver, the train would already be at Baker St and need to be dealt with anyway.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 22, 2019 9:45:32 GMT
Just to clarify, a procedure existed at Hammersmith to reverse an S8 under legacy signalling if absolutely necessary (it never was). I don’t know if this has been transferred to CBTC but I would imagine so (the logic is the same, just with a different way of working). Either way, there’s a few options available at Edgware Road and all would be preferred, as would reversing at High Street. There would also now be an option to reverse it at Paddington?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Dec 22, 2019 13:09:39 GMT
No need to go that far - S8’s have a reversing facility just west of Edgware Road.
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Post by philthetube on Dec 22, 2019 15:45:49 GMT
But the initial error was not the train op's but whoever allocated that unit to that duty. What was the TOp to do when presented with a train that was'nt suited to the task? The train op bringing the train out of Neasden would know what it was going to be used for and should notice the problem. I once ended up with an eight car on the Chesham shuttle, a very peculiar set of workings had a driver bring the train out of Ricky sidings who was then relieved on the platform and the train went empty to Chesham, only on walking the length of the platform at Chesham did I realise. to correct my statement I would not expect the train op to notice an issue, unless they specifically counted the number of cars, there would be no reason to notice.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 14, 2020 13:11:06 GMT
An S8 in service tried to go to Edgware Road this year : 04\01\20 train 407 lead car 21106 got into Baker P6. Detrained. I can't say more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 14:04:07 GMT
There is a S8 that is going to appear on the District next week running in a possession in engineering hours. I’m not going to publish anymore details then that though
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Post by underover on Jan 14, 2020 16:54:45 GMT
An S8 in service tried to go to Edgware Road this year : 04\01\20 train 407 lead car 21106 got into Baker P6. Detrained. I can't say more. They tried late last year as well, but less said about that the better
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Post by MoreToJack on Jan 14, 2020 17:03:46 GMT
An S8 ending up at Baker Street 6 isn’t unusual in either convention or ATO modes, both in error and to free up the City.
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Post by scheduler on Jan 16, 2020 0:46:42 GMT
Someone earlier in the thread asked if C&H T/Ops are trained for Aldgate terminating p'fms. And the answer is yes. There are scheduled middle platform reversers at Aldgate in the C&H timetable, and engineering works that require outstabling often put a C&H train to stable overnight in Aldgate platform 2 and / or 3.
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Jan 21, 2020 17:03:31 GMT
I have just travelled from Euston Square to Great Portland Street on an S8 which was telling all and sundry that it was a Circle line train via Baker Street and Paddington. The forward-facing seats were a useful hint for me that it might get diverted. Between those two stations it was changed to a Watford train. A number of passengers were confused. Some believed the dot matrix display others put their trust (correctly) in the line diagrams. It certainly made the journey more interesting for me.
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