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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 19:16:04 GMT
Any idea what's up with the Picc over the past few weeks. Big gaps between trains, 8-9 minutes on a few occasions. A considerable amount of train regulation taking place practically all the time. Out in the Northern Reaches, it always feels slightly that one is on the edge of earth when waiting for a Cockfosters train....
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 11, 2019 20:33:26 GMT
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Post by PiccNT on Aug 11, 2019 22:14:08 GMT
Mostly shortage of drivers. We have had something approaching 20 trains cancelled today due to "Operator Not Available". Usual combination of annual leave, sick leave, drivers that cannot drive for various reasons and unfilled vacancies. We are at full pelt with trainees and have something like 4 arriving every two weeks. Takes time to get them qualified and then we lose staff that are transferring out.
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Post by cudsn15 on Aug 12, 2019 20:06:38 GMT
In my experience of the line over the last 25 years it goes through regular cycles of good then poor service usually for the reasons as PiccNT has said. It definitely feels like a patch and mend service at the moment and knowing it's history and the state of finances currently it looks like the poor service will be with us for a little while It certainly feels like it's being run on a wing and a prayer and I rather suspect it will go into serious melt down at some point much like the old Northern Line in the 1980's and early 90's. But That might then prompt the re-generation that it so desperately needs and a magic money tree will be found to finance it. Considering the age of the line's assets and the intensity they are put through every day it's remarkable it runs as it does at all - but I rather suspect with the additional night tube running this sweating of the assets is bringing the day it all goes wrong ever closer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 6:45:48 GMT
Thanks, I did see a driver last week who looked about 20 years old so hopefully LUL is taking training seriously. Does anyone know why Cockfosters trains get regulated at Arnos Grove: does keeping the service interval matter that much for people getting on at Southgate and Oakwood compared with a busy train of people trying to get back...?
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Post by superteacher on Aug 13, 2019 6:54:22 GMT
Thanks, I did see a driver last week who looked about 20 years old so hopefully LUL is taking training seriously. Does anyone know why Cockfosters trains get regulated at Arnos Grove: does keeping the service interval matter that much for people getting on at Southgate and Oakwood compared with a busy train of people trying to get back...? Probably more to do with reducing congestion at Cockfosters.
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Post by commuter on Aug 31, 2019 15:02:04 GMT
Thanks, I did see a driver last week who looked about 20 years old so hopefully LUL is taking training seriously. Does anyone know why Cockfosters trains get regulated at Arnos Grove: does keeping the service interval matter that much for people getting on at Southgate and Oakwood compared with a busy train of people trying to get back...? Probably more to do with reducing congestion at Cockfosters. Also most of the time the signalling system runs automatically & will hold trains to time, so if they are running early the signal will not be cleared. Trains are not normally regulated here (Ie. they will not be asked manually to hold unless there is an incident on the line ahead).
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Post by PiccNT on Aug 31, 2019 19:00:14 GMT
On the EB, we will be held to our timetable time at South Harrow, North Ealing, Acton Town, Hammersmith, Hyde Park Corner, King's Cross, Wood Green, Arnos Grove and Oakwood. When the Northfields desk migrates to PICU, we will have a few more.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 31, 2019 19:22:24 GMT
There is a ridiculous amount of padding in the timetable, it’s no wonder that the line seems so pedestrian. Having said that, I was on a late running Picc train about a week ago and it was a pleasure to experience some proper driving from Turnpike Lane through to Holborn. Just like the 73 stock used to be driven!
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Aug 31, 2019 19:25:06 GMT
On the EB, we will be held to our timetable time at South Harrow, North Ealing, Acton Town, Hammersmith, Hyde Park Corner, King's Cross, Wood Green, Arnos Grove and Oakwood. When the Northfields desk migrates to PICU, we will have a few more. Any date yet for the Northfields desk migration ?
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Post by sudburytown on Aug 31, 2019 20:20:38 GMT
What are the WB hold points please?
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Post by marri260 on Aug 31, 2019 23:49:00 GMT
On the EB, we will be held to our timetable time at South Harrow, North Ealing, Acton Town, Hammersmith, Hyde Park Corner, King's Cross, Wood Green, Arnos Grove and Oakwood. When the Northfields desk migrates to PICU, we will have a few more. Any date yet for the Northfields desk migration ? Northfields desk goes over on September 5th iirc. Entire line will then be operating under the PICU system.
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Post by marri260 on Aug 31, 2019 23:52:40 GMT
What are the WB hold points please? Cockfosters, Oakwood, Arnos Grove, Wood Green, Finsbury Park, Kings Cross, Green Park, Hyde Park Corner, Barons Court, Hammersmith, Acton Town, Ealing Common, South Harrow - i.e all of the semi automatic areas.
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Post by marri260 on Sept 1, 2019 0:00:05 GMT
There is a ridiculous amount of padding in the timetable, it’s no wonder that the line seems so pedestrian. Having said that, I was on a late running Picc train about a week ago and it was a pleasure to experience some proper driving from Turnpike Lane through to Holborn. Just like the 73 stock used to be driven! There is so much I'd love to say on the standard of driving on the Pic - I really could go on for hours. Generally we are given anywhere between 1 hour 1 min and 1hr 5mins run time from Acton - Cockfosters and vice versa. I've managed to do both EB & WB in 56 minutes, driving well within all speed limits, using only service 1 braking and allowing the correct dwell times. Despite this, the vast majority (no exaggeration) of drivers (both new and 'experienced') struggle to even complete it in the usual 1hr 3 mins or so. I've found it possible to leave T5 8 minutes late, and make Cockfosters on time with a clear run through the road. Likewise, Acton - Uxbridge can be done in 31 minutes with a clear run through Rayners and Uxbridge. There are numerous issues with the Pic as has been said, primarily with regards to training, ongoing monitoring etc - I think that'll do for now.
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Post by fish7373 on Sept 1, 2019 15:44:06 GMT
HI there is no reduced maintenance on the piccadilly line 73 tube stock
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Sept 1, 2019 17:12:07 GMT
HI there is no reduced maintenance on the piccadilly line 73 tube stock Have the two 3 car units for the leaf fall season been converted for this year ?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 1, 2019 17:16:11 GMT
Have the two 3 car units for the leaf fall season be converted for this year ? The reduced service to facilitate this comes into operation on 9 September.
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Post by Tomcakes on Sept 1, 2019 18:00:43 GMT
It's becoming quite common for trains to be missing in the morning peak on the west from e.g. Holloway, leading to 5 minute or even 7.5 minute gaps in the service (nominally every 2.5 minutes I believe?). The east invariably has even larger gaps, and trains curtailed to Wood Green (already, at 7am!). As ever, the station staff continue to play the good service message.
The Picc also seems to take a considerable amount of time to return to normal after disruption. I assume that this is a combination of how busy it is off peak (serving, as it does, the west end), lack of easy turning points and the need to serve Heathrow.
And we are not even into Autumn yet, which the Picc hasn't been able to handle for some years.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 1, 2019 18:01:15 GMT
Have the two 3 car units for the leaf fall season be converted for this year ? The reduced service to facilitate this comes into operation on 9 September. Thanks Dstock 7080 .
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 1, 2019 19:57:11 GMT
Hello and welcome! The Picc has been getting more unreliable for a good few years. I think there’s several threads: one about flat wheels in leaf fall season: districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/30153/vAnd another more general discussion about worsening reliability: districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/28923/new-misery-lineYou’ve probably got several factors: the trains themselves being some of the oldest left, the reduced maintenance with Night Tube and I’m pretty sure there are some ongoing difficulties with training and CPD. I’m not sure there will be a quick fix... HI there is no reduced maintenance on the piccadilly line 73 tube stock I suspect londonstuff means that with trains running on Night Tube there are fewer hours available for the hardworking engineering staff to get their works done. Whilst I'm sure all staff (both on track and on trains/in depots) are professional and ensure maintenance standards are maintained, having to do the same work in less time inevitably means that those tasks that can legitimately be put off, are.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 1, 2019 20:02:45 GMT
The other issue is that as the 1973 stock age further, they may need extra maintenance to keep them going. In the current financial climate, that’s rather unlikely.
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Post by PiccNT on Sept 2, 2019 8:56:36 GMT
There is a ridiculous amount of padding in the timetable, it’s no wonder that the line seems so pedestrian. Having said that, I was on a late running Picc train about a week ago and it was a pleasure to experience some proper driving from Turnpike Lane through to Holborn. Just like the 73 stock used to be driven! There is so much I'd love to say on the standard of driving on the Pic - I really could go on for hours. Generally we are given anywhere between 1 hour 1 min and 1hr 5mins run time from Acton - Cockfosters and vice versa. I've managed to do both EB & WB in 56 minutes, driving well within all speed limits, using only service 1 braking and allowing the correct dwell times. Despite this, the vast majority (no exaggeration) of drivers (both new and 'experienced') struggle to even complete it in the usual 1hr 3 mins or so. I've found it possible to leave T5 8 minutes late, and make Cockfosters on time with a clear run through the road. Likewise, Acton - Uxbridge can be done in 31 minutes with a clear run through Rayners and Uxbridge. There are numerous issues with the Pic as has been said, primarily with regards to training, ongoing monitoring etc - I think that'll do for now. I concur!
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Post by commuter on Sept 2, 2019 10:57:52 GMT
It's becoming quite common for trains to be missing in the morning peak on the west from e.g. Holloway, leading to 5 minute or even 7.5 minute gaps in the service (nominally every 2.5 minutes I believe?). The east invariably has even larger gaps, and trains curtailed to Wood Green (already, at 7am!). There is a train booked to reverse at Wood Green, at 06:48.
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Post by scheduler on Sept 5, 2019 0:15:52 GMT
It's becoming quite common for trains to be missing in the morning peak on the west from e.g. Holloway, leading to 5 minute or even 7.5 minute gaps in the service (nominally every 2.5 minutes I believe?). The east invariably has even larger gaps, and trains curtailed to Wood Green (already, at 7am!). There is a train booked to reverse at Wood Green, at 06:48. That's a rusty rail move, as we call it. The Picc recovery after incidents is difficult compared to other lines, partly due to its length. Compounded currently by the stabling of a rail grinding machine at Down Street Siding during the day, precluding the sidings use for service reversal during disruption. For example, the average time to deal with a customer under a train incident is approx one hour, yet the time from one end of the line to the other is more like 1h30m, this means that when trains get moving again rather than being back onto their reverse working, they are at almost the wrong end of the line, with very limited turn back places - only Hammersmith and Wood Green (and Arnos Grove for Cockfosters services) being viable options for short workings, with Kings Cross as an emergency turn back due to a line blockage. I have been in the control room and seen Acton Town - Uxbridge shuttles implemented as a stop-gap measure by line control in an effort to try and get everything else back right. There is lots of "bunce" in the running times of most services in order to build in robustness into the service. i.e. A train can get back from 8 minutes late to on time within one trip, meaning less intervention is needed by service control - this is actually a positive trait of the timetable, it is designed to hold the service together. Whilst it may not be the most desirable thing, it is in the wider sense beneficial. Large numbers of No Operator Available for trains is, as mentioned, earlier in the thread an ongoing issue. They tried to plug the gap by offering Night Tube drivers, the opportunity of going for full working, but this then means you still have to train-up replacement Night Tube drivers, so it was a stop-gap measure. And finally there's the other obvious issues the stock is old, and so is the signalling. New trains are on order. New signalling system expected to follow eventually - but funding? In the meantime PICU control/signalling system is being brought in which sits over the top of the older signalling, it is rather good at regulating the service / holding trains to time - again as mentioned earlier a benefit really. Hold time is often scheduled approaching Cockfosters due to the complex timing of train moves in and out of this station.
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Post by Tomcakes on Nov 2, 2019 8:08:35 GMT
This year's service doesn't seem to have got too bad during October, although the service is now suspended Rayners to Uxbridge owing to leaves on the line. Perhaps a sacrificial lamb?
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Post by superteacher on Nov 2, 2019 11:54:42 GMT
This year's service doesn't seem to have got too bad during October, although the service is now suspended Rayners to Uxbridge owing to leaves on the line. Perhaps a sacrificial lamb? They did this last year. And refused to admit it in the service statuses! Agree though, it hasn’t been too bad so far!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 12:31:24 GMT
I had off of TfL a email yesterday informing me they took the decision to cancel the uxbridge service.
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Post by 1018509 on Nov 8, 2019 20:38:21 GMT
Service has got worse since 1st January 2011 which, coincidentally, is the day I took redundancy - no connection.
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 9, 2019 18:40:06 GMT
I personally thought it was a risk added the night tube to the Piccadilly considering the age of the stock and signalling system/assets (but I understand why it was done).
Considering the frequency of the Met between Rayners La and Uxbridge it is probably no hardship waiting 5 mins for a train!
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Post by goldenarrow on Dec 5, 2019 20:03:38 GMT
Another cancellation of the Piccadilly Line through Uxbridge Branch service on Friday due to high levels of leaf fall forecast, no service from start of traffic till 09:00 and 16:00 till 18:00. Metropolitan Line operating as usual.
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