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Post by d1002 on Mar 26, 2019 17:59:56 GMT
Recently visited The London Transport Museum and, must admit, was somewhat disappointed. It seems to have been ‘dumbed down’ since my last visit (a long time ago!). Guess it’s location means it’s now trying to attract the hordes of tourists that flock to Covent Garden, rather than the genuine enthusiast.
Wondering whether to try the depot at Acton. Are there displays there about the more technical aspects of the Underground, or is it just a storage facility for stock and buses that cannot be displayed at the main Museum?
For anyone thinking of going to Covent Garden, and has not been there before, this short video I took might give you an idea of what to expect:
Dave.
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Post by phil on Mar 26, 2019 23:53:46 GMT
Recently visited The London Transport Museum and, must admit, was somewhat disappointed. It seems to have been ‘dumbed down’ since my last visit (a long time ago!). Guess it’s location means it’s now trying to attract the hordes of tourists that flock to Covent Garden, rather than the genuine enthusiast. Wondering whether to try the depot at Acton. Are there displays there about the more technical aspects of the Underground, or is it just a storage facility for stock and buses that cannot be displayed at the main Museum? As far as I remember Action is basically a big storage shed which folk have access to a couple of times a year. While things are indeed on display (with a limited amount of information about them), its certainly not a 'museum' in the traditional sense of the word.
Definitely worth a visit - but its primary purpose is simply to store stuff the Museum cannot display in a secure, dry climate controlled environment.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 27, 2019 7:07:32 GMT
It's likely that if the LTM had to rely on genuine enthusiasts for revenue they'd have closed years ago. Tourism pays for the upkeep, as it does hundreds of other attractions in London, and because of that, must have a much broader appeal.
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Post by stapler on Mar 27, 2019 7:50:11 GMT
It's all about keeping the children amused, because families are where the revenue comes from
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brigham
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Post by brigham on Mar 27, 2019 8:33:14 GMT
Museums are to keep children informed, not amused.
I used to love visits to the great London museums, because I always came away knowing something new.
On my last visit to the York railway museum, just a year ago, I learned that "big engines like these were used on the fastest passenger trains".
Johnson? Deeley? Never heard of them!
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Post by phil on Mar 27, 2019 11:28:01 GMT
Museums are to keep children informed, not amused. Actually its a bit of both
Children generally have short attention spans (something lots of adults forget about their own childhood) and equally most do not enjoy being 'lectured' about stuff. Professionals in the field of education have long realised that the best way of getting children to absorb information is to make sure they have fun (i.e. are 'amused') while doing so. Therefore interactive and simple displays are very much preferred to wordy display boards and 'do not touch' exhibits. The LT museum is only following current best practice (as does the Scienece Museum, the Railway Museum in York, etc) in engaging with the young.
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Post by stapler on Mar 27, 2019 13:17:03 GMT
Museums are to keep children informed, not amused. I used to love visits to the great London museums, because I always came away knowing something new. On my last visit to the York railway museum, just a year ago, I learned that "big engines like these were used on the fastest passenger trains". Johnson? Deeley? Never heard of them! Johnson and Deeley never designed a big engine - hence the MR/LMS "small engine policy"! |
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Post by brigham on Mar 28, 2019 8:38:03 GMT
Museums are to keep children informed, not amused. I used to love visits to the great London museums, because I always came away knowing something new. On my last visit to the York railway museum, just a year ago, I learned that "big engines like these were used on the fastest passenger trains". Johnson? Deeley? Never heard of them! Johnson and Deeley never designed a big engine - hence the MR/LMS "small engine policy"! True enough. The NRM can't even get its 'dumbed-down' (ugh!) facts right. |
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Post by ducatisti on Mar 28, 2019 14:20:17 GMT
It's interesting. Before I had a child, my view was the Covent Garden museum was a total disaster zone. To some extent I still hold that view in terms of explaining artefacts in a way that rewards structural quasi-scholastic study. I really can't stand all the "imagine what it was like" stuff. And I do think it's emphasis on exceptions (eg women workers during the war) is unhelpful.
On the other hand, it's one of my son's favourite destinations in London, and most of his friends love it too. They are all about 4. If the enthusiasm for matters transport continues, then it's time well-spent. Whether it still satisfies when he's aged 10 is another question.
Something I do like about it (even though I am not interested in it) is the wider questions it seeks to ask about transport. It is a museum of transport, not a museum of trains, busses and trams.
I love the museum depot and hope they never change that, it's like wandering into someone's shed...
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Post by Chris M on Mar 28, 2019 17:57:33 GMT
I think the issue with Covent Garden museum is that (when I was last there at least) it was structured nearly exclusively for children, especially school groups, and almost nothing for other demographics. Children and small groups are definitely an important market, and nobody is begrudging catering for them, however there is an expectation that there will also be areas or displays aimed at transport-enthusiast adults, which there was before the last revamp but isn't now, leading to these people being disappointed. I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation, especially as most attractions that advertise themselves as suitable for "Families" (rather than "Children") do have content aimed at a range of interest levels, so there is clearly a disconnect between what people expect the museum to be and what it is.
Looking at the webpage, the major standout text is: "Discover London's history at the world's leading museum of urban transport, online, in our Museum and at our Depot.", "Pay for a day, come back free all year! Kids go free.", "Explore over 450,000 items in the Museum and online "
"Visiting as a family: The Museum is a great place for your family to have fun together and discover the history of London’s famous transport network. Enjoy our interactive galleries, singing, story and crafty events! "
The "Visiting the Musuem" page begins: "Discover the history of London's transport at London Transport Museum. Explore the heritage of London and its transport system, and the stories of the people who have travelled and worked in the city over the last 200 years, before taking a peek into how future technologies might impact London as we know it.
Planning your visit couldn't be easier. Use our simple guide below to find out more about us, how to get here, what's on offer and buy your tickets (save by buying tickets online!). Kids go free, and adult tickets are valid for 12 months!"
The "museum guide" page goes into quite some detail about the topics covered, including such technical aspects as "cut-and-cover" construction and "Greathead Shield".
Together all of this leads to suspect that the main museum is a good day out for families with displays pitched a different age levels and suitable for people of different interest levels, rather than what is actually on offer. So it seems the failure is one of advertising.
By contrast I remember a visit to the NRM where a few friends who are not really into transport thoroughly enjoyed themselves browsing for a couple of hours, while I equally enjoyed it equally spending all day there and seeing more things in more detail.
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Post by ducatisti on Mar 28, 2019 19:56:26 GMT
when you have a small child family means "will keep the little people occupied for long enough for you to recover your sanity" if it serves booze, won't completely skin you in the gift shop and is vaguely interesting then it's a bonus...
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Post by johnb2 on Mar 28, 2019 22:18:16 GMT
It's a trend that I've found in some US museums too, in that the approach seems to be tending to 'keep the kids amused'. Dumbing down is probaby too strong a term, but it's trend that I find disappointing. The Chicago Museum of Science and Industry as an example has gone that way in recent visits, yet other smaller ones are more traditional in their approach. As a youngster ('50s /early '60s) I used to find the old South Kensington Museums wonderful, yet in recent times I've gone off the modern approach, but then maybe I've just become an old grouch!
John
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 28, 2019 23:03:18 GMT
Perhaps there is an assumption that kids need it spelling out and thus are given a spark, whereas adults are able to do their own research? Spark something in a child and it can grown into a fire in an adult.
I certainly found that the Hidden London tours organised by the LTM had their content pitched just right for their (adult, general population) audience. Did they satisfy me as a (very definite) #TubeGeek, partially. Did they satisfy my former partner (who, whilst mildly interested, was just that - mild) yes.
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Post by westville13 on Mar 30, 2019 20:02:42 GMT
As one whose daughter's first words (allegedly) were "Not another old church Daddy" I think there is a real risk of boring children rigid while still not giving the enthusiasts what they want. In the real world museums have to earn their own living (or persuade the tax payer to fund them which comes to much the same thing) and families are critical to the visitor mix - one industrial museum I am involved in earns about half its ticket income from families with young children and a further big chunk from tourists - "expert" visitors come third. And that is before you start on venue hire where the really economy proof activity is children's parties. But once you get them in through the doors you can work on them......
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Post by zbang on Mar 31, 2019 0:21:02 GMT
... one industrial museum I am involved in earns about half its ticket income from families with young children and a further big chunk from tourists - "expert" visitors come third. As someone who often fits both "expert" and tourist groups at once, I'm happy to pay a reasonable amount for a museum ticket, but paying 25 quid for a "good 12 months" ticket is not usually reasonable since I'm not coming back anytime soon. When the museum only holds my interest for 2 hours, that's another poke in the eye. Sadly, the last time I went into the Covent Garden museum may be my last for those reasons. The bookshop, on the other hand, cost me at least £50. (Which suggests that an industrial museum should have a bookshop of hard-to-get-elsewhere and relevant materials.) |
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Post by compsci on Mar 31, 2019 22:28:00 GMT
Anyone who is dangerously addicted to the shop may find membership of the LTM Friends beneficial (currently £30 a year), which gives 15% off everything as well as free admission to the museum. There is a discount of £3 for direct debit or £240 for 10 years. They seem to have stopped offering life membership, which was £300 and is starting to look like a bit of a bargain. Perhaps I broke the business model by taking it out rather younger than they were expecting and so I should be wary of ending up at the bottom of a disused lift shaft in suspicious circumstances.
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Post by ducatisti on Apr 1, 2019 9:06:39 GMT
yes, it's a new trick museums seem to do now, have a high fee, but allow a year's membership/access. Great if you live nearby, not so good if you don't.
There again, I have friendship of the museum (even though I'm not convinced the museum is worth it), and we go pretty regularly, and have got a couple of non-tube friends going regularly, so that's more money through the till for them from non-enthusiasts.
The science museum is interesting, I found the ground-floor heavily aimed at children, then wandered into a gallery of models of marine compound steam engines with labels that I found incomprehensible...
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Post by sawb on Apr 1, 2019 9:18:56 GMT
Museums are to keep children informed, not amused. Actually its a bit of both
Children generally have short attention spans (something lots of adults forget about their own childhood) and equally most do not enjoy being 'lectured' about stuff. Professionals in the field of education have long realised that the best way of getting children to absorb information is to make sure they have fun (i.e. are 'amused') while doing so. Therefore interactive and simple displays are very much preferred to wordy display boards and 'do not touch' exhibits. The LT museum is only following current best practice (as does the Scienece Museum, the Railway Museum in York, etc) in engaging with the young.
It's well known that museums need to do more with engaging young people (I'm talking about anyone aged 35 or under here, not just children aged under 18). The problem is that some museums think, wrongly, that one size fits all when it comes to engaging young people, which is simply not the case. As a result, some museums do very well at engaging and potentially retaining young people, others do OK, whilst others shoot themselves in both feet spectacularly. (not going to give examples of individual museums that fall in these three categories in view of the fact the examples I'm thinking of, there is no staff presence on this forum to put across counter points). As someone who is disabled but involved with the sector (albeit not volunteering in a museum at present), there is a similar and even worse problem with engaging and retaining disabled people. Trying to engage and potentially retain disabled people is something that the sector as a whole needs to improve on dramatically. By retain, I mean retaining people as Friends, volunteers, supporters or even paid staff. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 15:41:28 GMT
Wondering whether to try the depot at Acton. Are there displays there about the more technical aspects of the Underground, or is it just a storage facility for stock and buses that cannot be displayed at the main Museum? The depot in Acton is much better now than it used to be, with more technical stuff now being put out and used operationally. There is a 67TS cab mocked up with equipment cases which operate like it would have when the 67TS were in service, there is a signalling display which ticks along quite nicely, they use a couple of routemasters for tours of the local area. etc Much better than the museum in covent garden |
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Post by 35b on Apr 1, 2019 22:12:57 GMT
yes, it's a new trick museums seem to do now, have a high fee, but allow a year's membership/access. Great if you live nearby, not so good if you don't. Not sure if it applies to LTM, but for those with charitable status, it is often to do with claiming Gift Aid. |
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Post by brigham on Apr 2, 2019 7:41:20 GMT
... The science museum is interesting, I found the ground-floor heavily aimed at children, then wandered into a gallery of models of marine compound steam engines with labels that I found incomprehensible... That gallery, along with the one with working models of locomotive valve-gear, has been one of my occasional haunts since childhood. In fact, triple-expansion marine engines are one of 'my favourite things', a list of which would cause Oscar Hammerstein to lose much-needed sleep. |
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Post by pitdiver on Apr 2, 2019 9:47:15 GMT
As a former Front Of House/ Operations supervisor at the LT Museum I can thoroughly recommend a visit to the "Depot" I along time ago lost count of how many time I visited the "Depot" but still have to admit never actuallu saw everything there. I always found the small items the most interesting. The posters however are something really special. If you ever get the opportunity to see the collection it's worth while.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 21:27:48 GMT
As a former Front Of House/ Operations supervisor at the LT Museum I can thoroughly recommend a visit to the "Depot" I along time ago lost count of how many time I visited the "Depot" but still have to admit never actuallu saw everything there. I always found the small items the most interesting. The posters however are something really special. If you ever get the opportunity to see the collection it's worth while. I go to practically every open weekend considering I work across the road from the depot, but there are loads of bits I have yet to see/do. Never been on the route masters, never seen the posters etc |
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Post by ducatisti on Apr 15, 2019 14:55:31 GMT
I went back to the museum on Saturday. It's still our "go-to" museum to entertain the little one in spite of it's flaws. But I put my finger on what I think it's problem is.
It's not sure what it is. Is interactive education space for children, place of material exhibits, art and design gallery?
None of these are impossible to put together, but the cues don't work.
eg the B Bus which is apparently the only one left, is in the middle of the floor with "do not touch" signs round it. Next to a bus you can go upstairs on. The access to vehicles is inconsistent too - some you can get in bits of, some you cant, some are perspexed off round the important bits, some aren't.
Then you've got the inside café... it's clearly a bodge job into the space with lines of tables and chairs not fitting the non-rectangular space, it's got no clear boundary to know where you can and can't take your ice-cream. And the service is so slow! One thing you want with a small child is food quickly. Is the upstairs café still there? I'll never make it there with offspring as it's just one step too far to hustle him past all the toys again...
Then there's the funny little gallery on the mezzanine - is it public space? isn't it? (it's always empty), it doesn't seem to be working hard enough for the space.
Also, having nearly lost the little hooligan in there, a hidden exit that can be approached in lots of directions is not great for stopping small children...
One thing I did notice this time was they had a volunteer checking if anyone in the queue didn't need to buy a ticket. Given how slow-moving the ticket queue is (and you have to queue outside in the rain), that was an improvement, so I hope they keep that up.
By contrast, we went to the national portrait gallery that was much less child-focussed (sinks in the bathroom were too high for small person, and no step was about)
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Post by Tom on Apr 15, 2019 17:22:07 GMT
As a child, the museum was, in effect, London Transport's museum, where you went to discover the history of LT and/or learn a little about how it operates. IMO that's no longer the case. The name change a few years ago to London's Transport Museum (now thankfully changed back) showed the aim and direction was more generic to tell the story of transport in London, which by that stage was an increased scope to discuss things such as cycle hire and black cabs.
The impression I get (having heard a talk from an LTM Project Manager a few years ago) is it's no longer about the collection and the history, but more to tell 'social history' stories where the vehicles are reduced to props in the telling of a story, rather than historial artefacts. The focus seems (seemed?) to be on Art Deco stations and trains (though technically 1938 stock isn't art deco despite what the LTM says), Metro-land, and so on; certainly at Covent Garden it's as if history ended with the coming of the Routemaster in 1954, and there is now nothing really about the technology and operation of the system. Definitely catering towards families with children and tourists rather than enthusiasts or serious researchers.
Rant over!
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Post by Tom on Apr 15, 2019 17:29:19 GMT
yes, it's a new trick museums seem to do now, have a high fee, but allow a year's membership/access. Great if you live nearby, not so good if you don't. Not sure if it applies to LTM, but for those with charitable status, it is often to do with claiming Gift Aid. It is indeed. The Gift Aid rate seems to be the default these days, with little attention paid to ensuring the right visitors are charged the right rate. I witnessed a pair of foreign visitors with ISIC (International Student ID) cards being charged the higher rate when ineligible as they weren't UK taxpayers. It was badly explained to them as a charitable donation, which they didn't understand and clearly didn't appreciate the technicalities of gift aid! |
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Post by 35b on Apr 15, 2019 19:31:14 GMT
Not sure if it applies to LTM, but for those with charitable status, it is often to do with claiming Gift Aid. It is indeed. The Gift Aid rate seems to be the default these days, with little attention paid to ensuring the right visitors are charged the right rate. I witnessed a pair of foreign visitors with ISIC (International Student ID) cards being charged the higher rate when ineligible as they weren't UK taxpayers. It was badly explained to them as a charitable donation, which they didn't understand and clearly didn't appreciate the technicalities of gift aid! Which is wrong on many levy, not to mention counter productive if HMRC then start investigating. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 15, 2019 19:53:43 GMT
HMRC and the Charity Commission...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 15, 2019 20:09:50 GMT
Not sure if it applies to LTM, but for those with charitable status, it is often to do with claiming Gift Aid. I witnessed a pair of foreign visitors with ISIC (International Student ID) cards being charged the higher rate when ineligible as they weren't UK taxpayers. It was badly explained to them as a charitable donation, which they didn't understand and clearly didn't appreciate the technicalities of gift aid! Sounds like poor training of the ticket office staff. In my experience, at such places the first question is always "are you a UK taxpayer?" And you have to give your name and address so HMRC can check. I don't know how often checks are made though - the Gift Aid claims I make for the small charity I run generally get paid by HMRC within a few days of me submitting them - less time than it takes me to collate and check the information required! |
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Post by holborncentral on Apr 17, 2019 0:18:10 GMT
I went last September and loved it, but I guess I'm easily pleased 😉 I loved looking inside the old buses and tube trains and seeing all the LU history displays. It was actually my optician who recommended I go there (he had been before). Plus it was the only way I could get my tube phobic mother to accept my interest in all things LU. She won't go on the tube and she complains about it and it drives me up the wall! I'd go Barking mad if I didn't have this site and Twitter. She has kind of accepted it now and I haven't been made to get rid of all my tube stuff. I bought the lightbox in Heathrow last time I was there and that went down well.
I'm seriously addicted to the gift shop though and spent over £200 when I went. Nearly had to pay excess baggage on my suitcase coming home 😳 I just ordered two more things from there tonight (a D stock t-shirt and a zip up hoodie with the LU logo on it) I really want to go to the Acton depot at some point but haven't found an excuse yet.
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