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Post by spsmiler on Oct 16, 2018 21:22:46 GMT
Because none of the Oyster card readers were working at London City Airport on Monday morning 15th October 2018, it proved impossible to 'touch-out' at the end of a journey to the airport on the DLR. This caused travel costs which had been expected to be £1.50 (or possibly a peak fare of £2.40) to become an incomplete journey fee of £8.
Today (the next day) I contacted TfL to seek a refund and was told that it cannot be issued to the Oyster card that was used when travelling.
Note, the helpdesk person agreed that a refund is due, but because a visitor oyster card was being used they either do not or can not refund it directly. Maybe its also because the card is older type (first generation) without the white D in a blue box on its back.
Instead the refund needs to be made directly to a bank account, or some other way. At the time of my phone call I was so shocked with what I was being told that I did not think to ask if they will allow the refund to be made to another (ordinary) Oyster card.
This is a big surprise to me, as last week I faced a refund scenario with a credit card and for that the company was insistent that the refund goes back to the card that made the purchase. I was told that this was to prevent fraud.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 16, 2018 21:46:05 GMT
This is a big surprise to me, as last week I faced a refund scenario with a credit card and for that the company was insistent that the refund goes back to the card that made the purchase. I was told that this was to prevent fraud. Yup. Previously you could buy something on Credit Card, get a refund in cash and hey presto you've avoided the cash advance fee(s). |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 16, 2018 22:19:56 GMT
Because none of the Oyster card readers were working at London City Airport on Monday morning 15th October 2018, it proved impossible to 'touch-out' at the end of a journey to the airport on the DLR. This caused travel costs which had been expected to be £1.50 (or possibly a peak fare of £2.40) to become an incomplete journey fee of £8. Today (the next day) I contacted TfL to seek a refund and was told that it cannot be issued to the Oyster card that was used when travelling. Note, the helpdesk person agreed that a refund is due, but because a visitor oyster card was being used they either do not or can not refund it directly. Maybe its also because the card is older type (first generation) without the white D in a blue box on its back. Instead the refund needs to be made directly to a bank account, or some other way. At the time of my phone call I was so shocked with what I was being told that I did not think to ask if they will allow the refund to be made to another (ordinary) Oyster card. This is a big surprise to me, as last week I faced a refund scenario with a credit card and for that the company was insistent that the refund goes back to the card that made the purchase. I was told that this was to prevent fraud. Would I be correct in assuming, given your past comments about anonymity, that you do not have a TfL account against which your card(s) are listed? On the one occasion where I needed a refund due to a system bug [1] they simply made a web credit on my account which would be credited against the next web ordered top up. That would seem to be an easy way to do it but it does rely on an account existing. I am surprised you are surprised about the credit card refund. It has long been practice that any refund against a card purchase is *always* credited back to the same account. When I worked in a travel centre in the 1980s that was the practice then even with carbonated paper 3 part credit card receipts. That prevents all sorts of fraudulent shenanigans going on. [1] it would be me that found it!   |
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Post by MoreToJack on Oct 16, 2018 22:32:56 GMT
Because none of the Oyster card readers were working at London City Airport on Monday morning 15th October 2018, it proved impossible to 'touch-out' at the end of a journey to the airport on the DLR. This caused travel costs which had been expected to be £1.50 (or possibly a peak fare of £2.40) to become an incomplete journey fee of £8. Today (the next day) I contacted TfL to seek a refund and was told that it cannot be issued to the Oyster card that was used when travelling. Note, the helpdesk person agreed that a refund is due, but because a visitor oyster card was being used they either do not or can not refund it directly. Maybe its also because the card is older type (first generation) without the white D in a blue box on its back. Instead the refund needs to be made directly to a bank account, or some other way. At the time of my phone call I was so shocked with what I was being told that I did not think to ask if they will allow the refund to be made to another (ordinary) Oyster card. This is a big surprise to me, as last week I faced a refund scenario with a credit card and for that the company was insistent that the refund goes back to the card that made the purchase. I was told that this was to prevent fraud. Would I be correct in assuming, given your past comments about anonymity, that you do not have a TfL account against which your card(s) are listed? On the one occasion where I needed a refund due to a system bug [1] they simply made a web credit on my account which would be credited against the next web ordered top up. That would seem to be an easy way to do it but it does rely on an account existing. I am surprised you are surprised about the credit card refund. It has long been practice that any refund against a card purchase is *always* credited back to the same account. When I worked in a travel centre in the 1980s that was the practice then even with carbonated paper 3 part credit card receipts. That prevents all sorts of fraudulent shenanigans going on. [1] it would be me that found it! Visitor Oyster cards cannot be registered. I don't understand why anyone - not least someone who lives in London - would use one. They have a non-refundable deposit and cannot do many functions of a standard card. Because Visitor cards cannot be registered, refunds cannot be made to them. This journey could be corrected at a station using the staff log-on facilities. It has nothing to do with the type of card. Not sure why you're surprised. You pays your money and takes your choice. It's simply not something offered with the product that you're using - that's no-one's problem but you're own. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 17, 2018 7:46:25 GMT
They have a non-refundable deposit ... If it's non refundable, it's not a deposit, it's simply the cost of the card. On a general point, though, I wish normal Oyster card overpayments could be refunded to a cc/bank account. If you get overcharged and are not coming to London for a few weeks it's a royal pain getting your money back. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Oct 17, 2018 8:38:22 GMT
They have a non-refundable deposit ... If it's non refundable, it's not a deposit, it's simply the cost of the card. On a general point, though, I wish normal Oyster card overpayments could be refunded to a cc/bank account. If you get overcharged and are not coming to London for a few weeks it's a royal pain getting your money back. Yes, you've spotted the deliberate error there. You should be able to arrange a refund to somewhere other than the Oyster card via the helpline, though it does sometimes depend on the operator. |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 17, 2018 12:50:22 GMT
Would I be correct in assuming, given your past comments about anonymity, that you do not have a TfL account against which your card(s) are listed? On the one occasion where I needed a refund due to a system bug [1] they simply made a web credit on my account which would be credited against the next web ordered top up. That would seem to be an easy way to do it but it does rely on an account existing. I am surprised you are surprised about the credit card refund. It has long been practice that any refund against a card purchase is *always* credited back to the same account. When I worked in a travel centre in the 1980s that was the practice then even with carbonated paper 3 part credit card receipts. That prevents all sorts of fraudulent shenanigans going on. [1] it would be me that found it! Visitor Oyster cards cannot be registered. I don't understand why anyone - not least someone who lives in London - would use one. They have a non-refundable deposit and cannot do many functions of a standard card. Because Visitor cards cannot be registered, refunds cannot be made to them. This journey could be corrected at a station using the staff log-on facilities. It has nothing to do with the type of card. Not sure why you're surprised. You pays your money and takes your choice. It's simply not something offered with the product that you're using - that's no-one's problem but you're own. Just to be completely clear I was not surprised nor was I the person using a Visitor's Oyster Card. Your info re the lack of registration capability is a general learning point so that's appreciated but I'm not the person who was travelling nor seeking a refund so I'm not in possession of any "problem". |
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Post by MoreToJack on Oct 17, 2018 12:53:26 GMT
Visitor Oyster cards cannot be registered. I don't understand why anyone - not least someone who lives in London - would use one. They have a non-refundable deposit and cannot do many functions of a standard card. Because Visitor cards cannot be registered, refunds cannot be made to them. This journey could be corrected at a station using the staff log-on facilities. It has nothing to do with the type of card. Not sure why you're surprised. You pays your money and takes your choice. It's simply not something offered with the product that you're using - that's no-one's problem but you're own. Just to be completely clear I was not surprised nor was I the person using a Visitor's Oyster Card. Your info re the lack of registration capability is a general learning point so that's appreciated but I'm not the person who was travelling nor seeking a refund so I'm not in possession of any "problem". Yes, there's a reason I included the OP as a quote - I was furthering the information you'd provided, and aiming it all at the OP who definitely does have a problem with the entire concept of Oyster. |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 18, 2018 21:41:28 GMT
Just to say... I've been so busy the past few days that I have not yet got around to sorting out the refund.
re: the credit card refund, when I had my camcorder cleaned (dust in lens unit!) last week the lady of the house paid the workshop estimate before the work was done but the charge included return postage - and I was going to collect it by hand. When I collected the camcorder I was asked for the same card that was used when paying the workshop fee but since it was not in my name I did not have it with me. Instead I had to phone the workshop with the card holder present to arrange the refund. This scenario largely explains my surprise in the TfL helpline person telling me that the refund can not be made to the same Oystercard that went into 'incomplete journey' mode. Surely by saying that it must go into a bank account there is a risk of people purposely creating a scenario where a refund is needed so as to to reduce the value of someone else's PAYG purse?
Visitor cards offer discounts, admittedly mostly aimed at tourists, but for someone who wanted another Oyster card and has no need add any sort of Travelcard to it so they are functionally the same as all other cards. Oh and the distinctive image on the cards' front might yet have a nostalgia value. As someone who knows how the system normally works and how and why to avoid incomplete journeys it is now a very long time since I needed a refund on an Oyster card, but of one thing I am certain... when I wanted the refund the card was anonymous / not registered! It might be however that this was in the days before online accounts existed and the system has changed since then. This is the first time I have ever encountered a scenario where it was impossible to touch-out (barring a few occasions where auto-complete had been enabled). I do not know if some sort of auto-complete had been enabled last Monday for people whose next journeys began at the airport station (once the card readers were working again) but even if this was the case since my return flight was diverted to Southend airport I did not travel again though this station. I have considered going back to the airport just to see if this is the situation, although it will cost me at least £1.50 extra just for trying. For the record, I also have a personalised card which has been used with weekly / monthly travelcards and will be taking this with me when I travel to Hong Kong as it means that if lost or stolen its PAYG value is protected. Ironically, if (last Monday) I had been travelling with a prepaid season ticket then I would not have had an incomplete journey issue as the system with prepaid tickets works a little differently. I have, in the past, actually bought (weekly) season tickets for zones 2-4 even when I only needed 3-4 for my travels to work... this was because I could also use the card to go trainspotting (using the North London Line and pink card readers to avoid zone 1) and it meant that I did not need to worry about journey time limits. This is one of the reasons why I prefer prepaid weeklies and avoid weekly PAYG ticketing solutions. Why not always use a registered card? What are the benefits - when anonymous cards can do the same job, at the same cost - and without creating a personally identifiable paper trail of ones movements? Yes I am someone who does not favour us all carrying police state style photo ID cards, and some years ago I recall how the public (in general) also rejected their becoming compulsory. Yet now many people have enthusiastically embraced the very concept via a back door method - public transport smart cards! I do see this as people being happy to trade personal freedom and security for an alleged convenience. However, we are also past the year 2012, the significance of this being something that I have never talked about here - and it will probably be the early 2020s before I am able to explain more. As an aside, I never expected to still be able to use this visitor card as its a first generation card (without the white D in a blue box on its back) and I had been under the impression that since these use an older / less secure encryption system TfL were going to phase out all the first gen cards several years ago. I hope that I have covered all people's comments of the past few days. Simon |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 25, 2018 20:38:40 GMT
It was agreed that i can have the refund made to another Oyster card, this time one that is registered in my name. To my surprise I was told that if I waited 30 minutes I could collect it almost anywhere, even on a bus. I say this because the last time I needed a refund I had to do this at a nominated station anytime between 'tomorrow' and 'a week from now'. Admittedly this was so many years ago that I no longer remember when - it could easily be a decade, or more!
So far I have tried a DLR and a LU ticket machine, without success, but only by touching the card reader and reviewing recent journeys. The card is still 10p in deficit. I am planning to try it at a ticket gate tomorrow... but it might be that I need to clear the negative value first. We shall see... and I will be travelling with more than one Oyster card and the means to top-up this card at a ticket machine 'just in case'. btw, it was explained that when making refunds they have to create an account on the system, but this is not possible with a Visitor card. It is OK however with an unregistered anonymous card - I have these too, as they can be shared with other people, whereas registered personalised cards are strictly restricted to the named person. It seems to be pretty poor planning to offer a product to the public which if there is a problem cannot be resolved through the system. Its absolutely diabolical that refunds have to be made to bank accounts, especially as most Visitor card holders are tourists and the financial transaction will see them incur financial losses (bank charges, etc). The more I contemplate this situation the more I feel that its an injustice. Maybe the best outcome would be to stop selling the present type of Visitor card and instead offer fully functioning ordinary cards with a special tourist pictorial image. I accept that these would not then be ready to use immediately (ie: need a monetary value adding to the electronic purse). But it would prevent heartache and financial loss if something went wrong and through no fault of their own the card holder(s) incurred one (or several) maximum fare charges. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 25, 2018 21:17:03 GMT
It was agreed that i can have the refund made to another Oyster card, this time one that is registered in my name. To my surprise I was told that if I waited 30 minutes I could collect it almost anywhere, even on a bus. I say this because the last time I needed a refund I had to do this at a nominated station anytime between 'tomorrow' and 'a week from now'. Admittedly this was so many years ago that I no longer remember when - it could easily be a decade, or more!
So far I have tried a DLR and a LU ticket machine, without success, but only by touching the card reader and reviewing recent journeys. The card is still 10p in deficit. I am planning to try it at a ticket gate tomorrow... but it might be that I need to clear the negative value first. We shall see... and I will be travelling with more than one Oyster card and the means to top-up this card at a ticket machine 'just in case'. I believe the ability to pick up a refund almost anywhere came with the last upgrade of the system earlier this year - the same one that introduced the more headline-grabbing expansion of the bus hopper fare from two consecutive bus journeys within one hour to an unlimited number of bus journeys within one hour even if separated by a non-bus journey (or possibly just rail journey, I am unsure if bus-ferry-bus or bus-dangleway-bus counts). As before though refunds can only be collected when touching in at the start of a journey. |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 27, 2018 17:21:46 GMT
Yes, the ticket machines did not do refunds. It might have been interesting to experiment and see what happens when an Oyster card with a negative balance is presented at a ticket gate that will, during the touch-in process, process a refund and increase the value stored in the e-purse back to positive territory.
But in the event as no-one was using one of the ticket machines which accept coins I seized the opportunity to add a little monetary value before passing through the ticket gate. I then went and spent much of the refund chasing a train that does not stop at stations... (the new Class 717). |
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Post by croxleyn on Oct 28, 2018 20:03:59 GMT
btw, it was explained that when making refunds they have to create an account on the system, but this is not possible with a Visitor card. It is OK however with an unregistered anonymous card - I have these too, as they can be shared with other people, whereas registered personalised cards are strictly restricted to the named person. Quote should say: btw, it was explained that when making refunds they have to create an account on the system, but this is not possible with a Visitor card. It is OK however with an unregistered anonymous card - I have these too, as they can be shared with other people, whereas registered personalised cards are strictly restricted to the named person.
I'm puzzled at various entries in this thread - I've had two "legacy" Oyster cards almost since introduction, one with my Senior discount, and they still work with my online account. I'm not interested in App access which need the "Digital" card. But, to get back to the quoted comment, when I got them I understood anyone could use someone else's account-linked card, but only if Adult class: those with discounts were strictly for the registered holder. I keep the second for visitors.
«rincew1nd: Quote fixed and authors compensating text struck out.» |
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Post by MoreToJack on Oct 29, 2018 1:19:33 GMT
I understood anyone could use someone else's account-linked card, but only if Adult class: those with discounts were strictly for the registered holder. I keep the second for visitors. Is the correct answer. An online registration is not a 'registration' in the Oyster sense - it is a 'protection'. Registration applies (applied?) only to monthly or longer period tickets, which were not transferrable. |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Oct 29, 2018 7:39:00 GMT
It might have been interesting to experiment and see what happens when an Oyster card with a negative balance is presented at a ticket gate that will, during the touch-in process, process a refund and increase the value stored in the e-purse back to positive territory. This is exactly what happens on both the ticket gates or standalone "we trust you" Oyster readers at the nominated station. I once received a £3.10 refund whilst my Oyster balance was -£0.15 and upon touching in, my balance increased to £2.95 - more than enough for the off-peak cap on my photocard.  |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 31, 2018 0:00:11 GMT
It might have been interesting to experiment and see what happens when an Oyster card with a negative balance is presented at a ticket gate that will, during the touch-in process, process a refund and increase the value stored in the e-purse back to positive territory. This is exactly what happens on both the ticket gates or standalone "we trust you" Oyster readers at the nominated station. I once received a £3.10 refund whilst my Oyster balance was -£0.15 and upon touching in, my balance increased to £2.95 - more than enough for the off-peak cap on my photocard. Thats good to know... although I am hoping that it will be at least a decade before my next need for a refund. This event only happened because of equipment failure / not anything that I did in error. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 31, 2018 18:54:44 GMT
This is exactly what happens on both the ticket gates or standalone "we trust you" Oyster readers at the nominated station. I once received a £3.10 refund whilst my Oyster balance was -£0.15 and upon touching in, my balance increased to £2.95 - more than enough for the off-peak cap on my photocard. Thats good to know... although I am hoping that it will be at least a decade before my next need for a refund. This event only happened because of equipment failure / not anything that I did in error. A simple delay is enough to cause a double incorrect overcharge. I was travelling on LO, touched in and went a few stops to change. There was a long wait and then they cancelled all the trains on the line I was changing to. So I had no option but to return to my starting point and use a bus and a different route. So I got whacked for a 'didn't touch out', and 'didn't touch in'. On top of that the system would not process the refund automatically and I had to email tfl and explain. Then they asked me to nominate a date for the refund and when I did so I got an automated reply that said it was not possible to nominate a date in the future.  What a bunch of muppets! |
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