rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 9,039 
|
Post by rincew1nd on Jul 5, 2018 8:39:42 GMT
Because there would be chaos on the days it changes!
Choose a system and stick to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by class411 on Jul 5, 2018 8:43:19 GMT
I am thankful of the intensive service we do get but National Rail seems to grasp the concept, why can't the tube lines with newer stock do the same I would imagine it's because the powers that be believe (probably correctly) that it would confuse passengers to have two different systems in operation. Even regular users could get momentarily confused. I know exactly what to expect from the LU and NR trains I use all the time, but I still occasionally go to press the (inside) button on an S-Stock when it stops, and stand like a lemon for a second on an Electrostar at my destination. And these are trains that I use all the time and have been doing so since each were introduced. |
|
|
|
Post by banana99 on Jul 5, 2018 8:52:36 GMT
I get that for high capacity services, you don’t want to be faffing around with passenger open. However, dwell times on some of branches are not critical as has been mentioned. 3 tph on the Chigwell loop hardly requires a swift departure due to the crowds of people. So why not have passenger open, say, west of White City and east of Leytonstone in the winter months only? Because it's inconsistent not only by location but also by time. This creates confusion unless clearly signposted which may require changes to the human-door interface that may not be supportable by 92 stock. i.e. it probably needs to be designed-in with flashing lights, notices, announcements etc. etc. |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Jul 5, 2018 9:03:45 GMT
I get that for high capacity services, you don’t want to be faffing around with passenger open. However, dwell times on some of branches are not critical as has been mentioned. 3 tph on the Chigwell loop hardly requires a swift departure due to the crowds of people. So why not have passenger open, say, west of White City and east of Leytonstone in the winter months only? Because it's inconsistent not only by location but also by time. This creates confusion unless clearly signposted which may require changes to the human-door interface that may not be supportable by 92 stock. i.e. it probably needs to be designed-in with flashing lights, notices, announcements etc. etc. It is done on Thameslink with the core section being auto open. It will probably have to wait until new stock is brought in though as the door buttons on the 92 stock don’t illuminate (another example of the cheap design). |
|
tut
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by tut on Jul 5, 2018 9:28:24 GMT
I get that for high capacity services, you don’t want to be faffing around with passenger open. However, dwell times on some of branches are not critical as has been mentioned. 3 tph on the Chigwell loop hardly requires a swift departure due to the crowds of people. So why not have passenger open, say, west of White City and east of Leytonstone in the winter months only? You also now have another system to maintain, that you don't really need all the time and don't even want half the time. |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Jul 5, 2018 9:52:20 GMT
I get that for high capacity services, you don’t want to be faffing around with passenger open. However, dwell times on some of branches are not critical as has been mentioned. 3 tph on the Chigwell loop hardly requires a swift departure due to the crowds of people. So why not have passenger open, say, west of White City and east of Leytonstone in the winter months only? You also now have another system to maintain, that you don't really need all the time and don't even want half the time. So if that’s the case why do any trains bother having passenger open at all? Sadly passenger comfort is very low down the list of priorities these days when at one time it was one of the highest. |
|
|
|
Post by John Tuthill on Jul 5, 2018 10:01:14 GMT
You also now have another system to maintain, that you don't really need all the time and don't even want half the time. So if that’s the case why do any trains bother having passenger open at all? Sadly passenger comfort is very low down the list of priorities these days when at one time it was one of the highest. Possibly at its most benefical at remote stations in winter,or off peak. Those who want to get off open their door(s) only? Just a thought. |
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 5, 2018 10:13:46 GMT
On the 1992ts the door operation rotary switch is next to the J Door and has to be turned from "driver open" to "passenger open", I suspect most drivers would forget to switch over at Leytonstone or White City so the doors would remain in one mode or the other throughout the trip.
Also the switches are not maintained, a few times when I've switched to "passenger open" because its been snowing the doors have continued to operate as "driver open".
"Passenger open" operation was discontinued from 3rd August 2000 for various reasons, mostly people kept leaning on the "door closed" buttons when the train was crowded during the peaks but there were also a few incidents where someone wanted to get off, waited for the doors to open rather than pushing the "door open" button and then pulled the handle down when the train moved off.
|
|
|
|
Post by croxleyn on Jul 5, 2018 18:49:55 GMT
"Faffing around" could be made far slicker - upon the announcement "The next station is...", if the doors are not opening automatically, add "Press Door [Open] button for Exit", or some such, then LATCH (remember) any button press in the way pedestrian crossings do. Button surrounds that light when enabled would flash, indicating that the door will open as soon as enabled. Simples.
|
|
Chris M
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 16,082
|
Post by Chris M on Jul 5, 2018 23:27:10 GMT
Very easy to add to new stock (door buttons with memory are common on trams), but probably very tricky to retrofit. And that's not even considering the expense - remember it has been stated in a couple of other recent threads that just changing the auto announcements is far from cheap.
|
|
|
|
Post by ethano92345 on Jul 6, 2018 0:19:04 GMT
I think some are forgetting it was already said this would probably only be implemented on s stock and new stock. I like the idea of passenger operation west of white city and east of leytonstone. A quick announcement would help at stations where doors wouldn't open automatically, similar to Thameslink. when remembering that safety campaings TFL had a month or two ago, I think we are all well aware theyd be able to make the new system of door operation well clear for passengers. IM surprised nobody else has brought crossrail into this, many have said people will treat it as a tube line and this is likely but at above ground stations, the doors wont open automatically. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the puzzle and press the big illuminated button when the door tone does sound.
Let's take Paris for example, their old trains still have passenger operated doors at all stations, the oldest having some confusing handle mechanism. Im sure thousands are confused by this everyday, when I went I certainly was but they learn, and by the second time they use the train, they know how to do it. People will learn. Dare I say we are holding the passengers hands too much if we are that scared that they won't think to press a button if a loud door tone sounds and a button illuminates, just because they're on a tube train. many people often press buttons anyway, especially on the s stock.
If the s stock did this, that'd already be 40% of the network with such a system, people would learn fast. The Picc would then join and others would eventually. The northern and Victoria don't have buttons to press so we are worrying about a very short period of the changeover in my opinion.
Perhaps more would agree if we were discussing in winter and the battering wind hit you at every stop when there was a perfectly good button to save you from that:)
|
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Jul 6, 2018 8:15:12 GMT
I take your point but if we look at one of them, Covent Garden WB, the Leicester Square inner home signal is located prior to reaching the 6 car marker so if we get held, the back end of the train is still in the station. One other example, we are instructed at Barons Court EB to wait until the repeater R651 clears before departing. This minimises the risk of having a SPaD at A655, the signal with the worst SPaD record on the whole of London Underground with 23 instances of passing this signal without authority over the past two years. Are you sure this is to do with A655, as opposed to A651 itself? I’d be rather worried if people were waiting for the repeater to clear and then being lulled into a sense of security that the train ahead has advanced far enough that A655 is likely to be clear - if so there’s if anything more chance of someone making the mistake of anticipating it clearing. In the case of Leicester Square this will be severely messing up the headway, as waiting for everything to clear before closing the doors means the following train will now be being held too long at the outer home (ironically making him more likely to have a SPAD if we take the view that a red signal is there to be hit!). Surely by the time the doors have closed everything should have gone green unless the preceding train has been pulled down. There used to be some rather messy signals in the Charing Cross / Embankment area, but I don’t remember them being a major problem - although the 95 stock does have the benefit of in-cab monitors, assuming you hadn’t left under assisted dispatch of course. Without wishing to sound flippant one effective SPAD avoidance measure would be to not let any train leave a depot in the morning, then no one would have to worry about SPADs at all! (To be fair, I do realise this is a complex subject, and in particular most of these signals will have been installed before today’s SPAD policy came in, which is the elephant in the room. It’s a rather depressing far cry from the days when signalling notices actively instructed drivers to derive maximum benefit from the signalling provided... I used to love the speed controlled signalling at Oval and Waterloo, and it was always extremely satisfying to manage to trigger it correctly, although it was very hard to do as using it as designed relied upon anticipating signals clearing which unfortunately became something we couldn’t do, so quite a bit of skill and nerve was required.) A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Jul 6, 2018 8:23:14 GMT
Are you sure this is to do with A655, as opposed to A651 itself? I’d be rather worried if people were waiting for the repeater to clear and then being lulled into a sense of security that the train ahead has advanced far enough that A655 is likely to be clear - if so there’s if anything more chance of someone making the mistake of anticipating it clearing. In the case of Leicester Square this will be severely messing up the headway, as waiting for everything to clear before closing the doors means the following train will now be being held too long at the outer home (ironically making him more likely to have a SPAD if we take the view that a red signal is there to be hit!). Surely by the time the doors have closed everything should have gone green unless the preceding train has been pulled down. There used to be some rather messy signals in the Charing Cross / Embankment area, but I don’t remember them being a major problem - although the 95 stock does have the benefit of in-cab monitors, assuming you hadn’t left under assisted dispatch of course. Without wishing to sound flippant one effective SPAD avoidance measure would be to not let any train leave a depot in the morning, then no one would have to worry about SPADs at all! (To be fair, I do realise this is a complex subject, and in particular most of these signals will have been installed before today’s SPAD policy came in, which is the elephant in the room. It’s a rather depressing far cry from the days when signalling notices actively instructed drivers to derive maximum benefit from the signalling provided... I used to love the speed controlled signalling at Oval and Waterloo, and it was always extremely satisfying to manage to trigger it correctly, although it was very hard to do as using it as designed relied upon anticipating signals clearing which unfortunately became something we couldn’t do, so quite a bit of skill and nerve was required.) A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. Which kind of implies that training is not all it should be. |
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Jul 6, 2018 8:26:03 GMT
A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. Which kind of implies that training is not all it should be. Yes, it's pretty much accepted that training could be better! |
|
|
|
Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 9:49:44 GMT
Are you sure this is to do with A655, as opposed to A651 itself? I’d be rather worried if people were waiting for the repeater to clear and then being lulled into a sense of security that the train ahead has advanced far enough that A655 is likely to be clear - if so there’s if anything more chance of someone making the mistake of anticipating it clearing. In the case of Leicester Square this will be severely messing up the headway, as waiting for everything to clear before closing the doors means the following train will now be being held too long at the outer home (ironically making him more likely to have a SPAD if we take the view that a red signal is there to be hit!). Surely by the time the doors have closed everything should have gone green unless the preceding train has been pulled down. There used to be some rather messy signals in the Charing Cross / Embankment area, but I don’t remember them being a major problem - although the 95 stock does have the benefit of in-cab monitors, assuming you hadn’t left under assisted dispatch of course. Without wishing to sound flippant one effective SPAD avoidance measure would be to not let any train leave a depot in the morning, then no one would have to worry about SPADs at all! (To be fair, I do realise this is a complex subject, and in particular most of these signals will have been installed before today’s SPAD policy came in, which is the elephant in the room. It’s a rather depressing far cry from the days when signalling notices actively instructed drivers to derive maximum benefit from the signalling provided... I used to love the speed controlled signalling at Oval and Waterloo, and it was always extremely satisfying to manage to trigger it correctly, although it was very hard to do as using it as designed relied upon anticipating signals clearing which unfortunately became something we couldn’t do, so quite a bit of skill and nerve was required.) A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. Obviously for a non driver/signaller it's hard to understand exactly what you are saying here, but, in layman's terms, would a reasonable interpretation be that the signalling is somehow inviting drivers to believe something that is not necessarily correct, even if the actually signalling arrangements are not actually 'wrong'. Some years back there was a good series on the underground that went into driver training, and a driver spadded on her first day (IIRC) alone because she treated one of those white diagonal lines that, I assume, indicate to the driver what route is set, as a (in road terms) filter signal. I felt desperately sorry for her, not only having a Spad so early, but having it televised. I also wonder about the quality of training that allowed drivers to qualify without having the fact that such a signal is NOT a filter thoroughly drilled into them. |
|
rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 9,039
|
Post by rincew1nd on Jul 6, 2018 10:04:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 6, 2018 10:41:53 GMT
A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. Obviously for a non driver/signaller it's hard to understand exactly what you are saying here, but, in layman's terms, would a reasonable interpretation be that the signalling is somehow inviting drivers to believe something that is not necessarily correct, even if the actually signalling arrangements are not actually 'wrong'. Some years back there was a good series on the underground that went into driver training, and a driver spadded on her first day (IIRC) alone because she treated one of those white diagonal lines that, I assume, indicate to the driver what route is set, as a (in road terms) filter signal. I felt desperately sorry for her, not only having a Spad so early, but having it televised. I also wonder about the quality of training that allowed drivers to qualify without having the fact that such a signal is NOT a filter thoroughly drilled into them. On the Central and W&C you can't get the route indicator (arrow or number) without the associated signal clearing at the same time. I'm pretty sure that's also the case on other LUL lines and on the mainline so I don't think that was why she had a SPAD. |
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Jul 6, 2018 10:57:40 GMT
A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. Obviously for a non driver/signaller it's hard to understand exactly what you are saying here, but, in layman's terms, would a reasonable interpretation be that the signalling is somehow inviting drivers to believe something that is not necessarily correct, even if the actually signalling arrangements are not actually 'wrong'. Some years back there was a good series on the underground that went into driver training, and a driver spadded on her first day (IIRC) alone because she treated one of those white diagonal lines that, I assume, indicate to the driver what route is set, as a (in road terms) filter signal. I felt desperately sorry for her, not only having a Spad so early, but having it televised. I also wonder about the quality of training that allowed drivers to qualify without having the fact that such a signal is NOT a filter thoroughly drilled into them. Was that the episode on women drivers? I remember that one and I believe it was Earl's Court and she heard the points throw and off she went. The points throwing of course is no confirmation that the associated signal has cleared as she found out. I also remember that her attitude was perhaps a little less than professional! I apologise if I went in jargon mode, I will attempt to explain further. So basically, a green signal means that the section ahead is clear and you can proceed at line speed. That gives you authority as far as the next signal and then it starts over again. That seems simple enough but in reality you have to understand the line and the signalling and anticipate what is going to happen under varying conditions. Some signals will clear when the train in advance has cleared that signalling section, and some signals will only clear, at different stages, on approach. I have mentioned signal A655 as that is a signal we have a particular problem with. It's located about 300m into the eastbound tunnel and it has two functions, to protect the section ahead and it is also a speed control signal designed to ensure the speed of the approaching train complies with the permanent speed restriction of 25mph. It is located on a 1:50 gradient. You lose concentration and let the train coast, you will SPaD it in all probability. On approach to stations, there are normally a series of "home" signals. The purpose of them is to maximise line capacity. Trains berthed in a station will usually mean that the train behind will be held at the "outer" home signal. When the train ahead starts to move, the outer home signal will clear, when the train ahead is most of the way out of the station, the intermediate home will clear etc etc. The long and short of it is understanding the signalling logic on the line. As mentioned above, if you know where the signals are, you remember where you are and what to expect under any given circumstance, you can expect to drive safely, at line speed if appropriate confident in the fact that you won't pass a signal at danger without authority. Hope that helps. |
|
Chris M
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 16,082
|
Post by Chris M on Jul 6, 2018 11:10:48 GMT
]On the Central and W&C you can't get the route indicator (arrow or number) without the associated signal clearing at the same time. I'm pretty sure that's also the case on other LUL lines and on the mainline so I don't think that was why she had a SPAD. On the mainline, the route indicator lights before the signal clears. Usually delay between the two is almost zero, but this is not always the case. During disruption at Bristol Parkway once I clearly remember the signal showing a white route indicator and red aspect simultaneously for a good 5 seconds before the aspect changed to green. |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,383
|
Post by North End on Jul 6, 2018 13:22:58 GMT
Are you sure this is to do with A655, as opposed to A651 itself? I’d be rather worried if people were waiting for the repeater to clear and then being lulled into a sense of security that the train ahead has advanced far enough that A655 is likely to be clear - if so there’s if anything more chance of someone making the mistake of anticipating it clearing. In the case of Leicester Square this will be severely messing up the headway, as waiting for everything to clear before closing the doors means the following train will now be being held too long at the outer home (ironically making him more likely to have a SPAD if we take the view that a red signal is there to be hit!). Surely by the time the doors have closed everything should have gone green unless the preceding train has been pulled down. There used to be some rather messy signals in the Charing Cross / Embankment area, but I don’t remember them being a major problem - although the 95 stock does have the benefit of in-cab monitors, assuming you hadn’t left under assisted dispatch of course. Without wishing to sound flippant one effective SPAD avoidance measure would be to not let any train leave a depot in the morning, then no one would have to worry about SPADs at all! (To be fair, I do realise this is a complex subject, and in particular most of these signals will have been installed before today’s SPAD policy came in, which is the elephant in the room. It’s a rather depressing far cry from the days when signalling notices actively instructed drivers to derive maximum benefit from the signalling provided... I used to love the speed controlled signalling at Oval and Waterloo, and it was always extremely satisfying to manage to trigger it correctly, although it was very hard to do as using it as designed relied upon anticipating signals clearing which unfortunately became something we couldn’t do, so quite a bit of skill and nerve was required.) A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. I do find it a little concerning that this is what they seem to be teaching, and if so no wonder the Picc has a major SPADs problem. If I see it right, at Barons Court you have a starter (A649) with repeater R651 beneath it. Neither of these has any bearing on what A655 is going to do, which is some way further on. If the train goes too fast through the timing section or there is a train in the section ahead then A655 is *not* going to clear, no matter how long one has waited at Barons Court. To my view it’s actually increasing the SPAD risk as the driver may now think the train ahead will have had time to move far enough ahead, which is not guaranteed at all. Meanwhile the train behind has now got a red at Barons Court home signals, creating an increasee SPAD risk for him if we take the view that any red signal is a SPAD in waiting. Perhaps the train behind is now hanging back, so now Line capacity is shot to pieces, and which would seem to be being borne out by how badly the Picc copes when the job goes up the wall. To be fair, we had the same with NN14/15A at Archway, where there were some very strange understandings floating around about how the signal worked. In reality it never needed to be any more complicated than “if it’s red you stop at it, and if it goes green then you continue”. Yet sadly IOs were still to the end teaching people things like “it always clears” or “give yourself an extra 30 seconds at Highgate and you don’t have to worry then”. In essence there is nowadays a big problem with training on LU which I think is driven by poor management lacking in technical railway understanding themselves. |
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Jul 6, 2018 13:54:52 GMT
A655 is most definitely the problem due to the amount of SPaD's. Several initiatives such as a notice when you enter the tunnel that A655 is ahead, a "braking monument" board located a braking distance to the rear of the signal, two repeaters plus the instruction not to depart Barons Court until the repeater ahead has cleared. Still it gets hit on a regular basis. However, over the past month since another software update was dropped in, we are now being routinely regulated at Hammersmith EB so by the time we get to Barons Court, the train ahead has usually cleared the section ahead. Your observation about outer home signals is pretty much spot on. Around 50% of all of the SPaD's on the Picc are at outer home signals. There are various reasons why this occurs. Perhaps concentration and route knowledge are a couple quite high on the list. I do find it a little concerning that this is what they seem to be teaching, and if so no wonder the Picc has a major SPADs problem. If I see it right, at Barons Court you have a starter (A649) with repeater R651 beneath it. Neither of these has any bearing on what A655 is going to do, which is some way further on. If the train goes too fast through the timing section or there is a train in the section ahead then A655 is *not* going to clear, no matter how long one has waited at Barons Court. To my view it’s actually increasing the SPAD risk as the driver may now think the train ahead will have had time to move far enough ahead, which is not guaranteed at all. Meanwhile the train behind has now got a red at Barons Court home signals, creating an increasee SPAD risk for him if we take the view that any red signal is a SPAD in waiting. Perhaps the train behind is now hanging back, so now Line capacity is shot to pieces, and which would seem to be being borne out by how badly the Picc copes when the job goes up the wall. To be fair, we had the same with NN14/15A at Archway, where there were some very strange understandings floating around about how the signal worked. In reality it never needed to be any more complicated than “if it’s red you stop at it, and if it goes green then you continue”. Yet sadly IOs were still to the end teaching people things like “it always clears” or “give yourself an extra 30 seconds at Highgate and you don’t have to worry then”. In essence there is nowadays a big problem with training on LU which I think is driven by poor management lacking in technical railway understanding themselves. Almost, R651 is in the distance between the 5 and 6 car markers. To make it even more complicated, when a District Line departs EB from BC, it obscures the repeater so we wait until that's out the way!! I believe the thinking is that you have a better chance of it being clear if you follow that instruction. I have to say that in the two years that I have been driving on the Picc, I have only ever had to stop at A655 once and that was when someone was in the cab with me and I departed before the repeater cleared! It's fair to say that when the job goes up the wall, it's often shot to pieces for the majority of the day. |
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Jul 6, 2018 14:43:56 GMT
The speed control into the tunnel east of Barons Court seems pointless and arbitrary. For years and years there was never any issue - nobody got hurt and nothing got damaged! Perhaps they should remove it and the associated SPAD risk would disappear with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 6, 2018 15:29:49 GMT
On the mainline, the route indicator lights before the signal clears. I've always assumed this is deliberate, as if it happened the other way round a driver might respond to a clear signal apparently for the straight ahead route, only for the "feathers" to appear a moment later indicating you are routed over a diverging route - which may have a lower speed limit, or not be cleared for whatever it is you are driving, or simply not be where your passengers are expecting you to take them. |
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,383
|
Post by North End on Jul 6, 2018 15:40:18 GMT
The speed control into the tunnel east of Barons Court seems pointless and arbitrary. For years and years there was never any issue - nobody got hurt and nothing got damaged! Perhaps they should remove it and the associated SPAD risk would disappear with it. The problem is that if a train left Barons Court and continued motoring with no control by the driver for whatever reason, the downhill gradient would mean the train could reach a speed such that the signal overlaps may well not hold up. Having said that the Northern managed to have one such signal removed so it can be done. A lot depends on whether the speed control is there to prevent dust or whether it’s a fundamental part of the signal design calculations - the former function is less relevant with rheostatic braking, the the latter function still is. |
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Jul 6, 2018 16:01:45 GMT
The speed control into the tunnel east of Barons Court seems pointless and arbitrary. For years and years there was never any issue - nobody got hurt and nothing got damaged! Perhaps they should remove it and the associated SPAD risk would disappear with it. The problem is that if a train left Barons Court and continued motoring with no control by the driver for whatever reason, the downhill gradient would mean the train could reach a speed such that the signal overlaps may well not hold up. Having said that the Northern managed to have one such signal removed so it can be done. A lot depends on whether the speed control is there to prevent dust or whether it’s a fundamental part of the signal design calculations - the former function is less relevant with rheostatic braking, the the latter function still is. I remember the days before speed control approaching Highgate SB. I also remember one particular motorman from East Finchley depot that used to regularly fill Highgate station with brake dust care of the beautiful 1938's. I think he was the reason a signalling upgrade was introduced! |
|
|
|
Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 16:33:41 GMT
Obviously for a non driver/signaller it's hard to understand exactly what you are saying here, but, in layman's terms, would a reasonable interpretation be that the signalling is somehow inviting drivers to believe something that is not necessarily correct, even if the actually signalling arrangements are not actually 'wrong'. Some years back there was a good series on the underground that went into driver training, and a driver spadded on her first day (IIRC) alone because she treated one of those white diagonal lines that, I assume, indicate to the driver what route is set, as a (in road terms) filter signal. I felt desperately sorry for her, not only having a Spad so early, but having it televised. I also wonder about the quality of training that allowed drivers to qualify without having the fact that such a signal is NOT a filter thoroughly drilled into them. Was that the episode on women drivers? I remember that one and I believe it was Earl's Court and she heard the points throw and off she went. The points throwing of course is no confirmation that the associated signal has cleared as she found out. I also remember that her attitude was perhaps a little less than professional! As a driver you are more likely to remember exactly what happened than I am, but I'm surprised if it was the points sound that caused her to start. Starting because what you believe is a signal clears you is at least vaguely reasonable - even if it implies an appalling standard of training/testing, but starting because you hear the points change is downright weird. Maybe for an old hand who has encountered the situation (points and in immediate green) hundreds of times and has made in unconscious, incorrect, association it would be believable, but for an inexperienced driver it beggars belief that she would have responded to anything other than a signal. Unless, of course, one of her trainers had told her she could! I'm not sure what you mean by her unprofessional attitude, but, again, you would be far better placed to gauge that than I would. All I remember is that she was pretty upset - even though she tried to hide the fact. I presume causing a SPAD is psychologically similar to a minor car crash. Thanks for that detailed explanation. It not only explains what you were talking about but provides an interesting insight into the more esoteric functions of train driving. |
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Jul 6, 2018 16:42:48 GMT
Was that the episode on women drivers? I remember that one and I believe it was Earl's Court and she heard the points throw and off she went. The points throwing of course is no confirmation that the associated signal has cleared as she found out. I also remember that her attitude was perhaps a little less than professional! As a driver you are more likely to remember exactly what happened than I am, but I'm surprised if it was the points sound that caused her to start. Starting because what you believe is a signal clears you is at least vaguely reasonable - even if it implies an appalling standard of training/testing, but starting because you hear the points change is downright weird. Maybe for an old hand who has encountered the situation (points and in immediate green) hundreds of times and has made in unconscious, incorrect, association it would be believable, but for an inexperienced driver it beggars belief that she would have responded to anything other than a signal. Unless, of course, one of her trainers had told her she could! I'm not sure what you mean by her unprofessional attitude, but, again, you would be far better placed to gauge that than I would. All I remember is that she was pretty upset - even though she tried to hide the fact. I presume causing a SPAD is psychologically similar to a minor car crash. Thanks for that detailed explanation. It not only explains what you were talking about but provides an interesting insight into the more esoteric functions of train driving. This is the incident I was thinking about from about 6 minutes. |
|
|
|
Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 6, 2018 16:52:34 GMT
This is the incident I was thinking about from about 6 minutes. That particular driver is still on the District Line although is currently undertaking Line Controller training. |
|
|
|
Post by PiccNT on Jul 6, 2018 16:58:21 GMT
What I meant to say of course was what a professional attitude she has :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2018 17:13:47 GMT
Thanks for that, PicNT.
It just shows how unreliable your (or rather my) memory can be.
I had muddled up the trainee with the 2 yr driver. So all my comments about poor training letting a new driver think using anything other than a signal as a clear to start are null and void.
I see what you mean about the unprofessional attitude, but I think that was almost certainly to do with being completely gutted about her error. It came across as if she didn't think it was too much of a problem, but, in reality, I suspect that was more her trying to convince herself that she wasn't as much of an idiot as she no doubt felt.
I noted the supervisor saying that some drivers had seen that video 'half a dozen times'.
|
|
