Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 2, 2018 12:17:57 GMT
Technically the escalators are canary yellow not neon yellow, but I rather like them as it's a change from the usual grey concrete and silvery-grey metal (with occasional blue highlights if your lucky) we usually get these days. The light walls above the platform edge doors do a very good job of lighting the station without being harsh. They've done a much better job at that level than they have with most of the rest of the estate (although that's really not very difficult).
As for finding it, when the layout of the estate was designed the north dock (in which the station sits) was the northern boundary and so the buildings all focus inwards away from it, meaning it's sort of been built in a back alley. The location was chosen very much for ease of building the railway and station on top of it, rather than with consideration for passenger movement. Bus connections are particularly poor and interchange to either the DLR or Jubilee line stations requires navigating a shopping centre.
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 2, 2018 17:40:36 GMT
Chris M , I wholeheartedly agree with your points, the workers present at the Canary Wharf open day were very honest in admitting in that, "The station was never designed with the intention of forming an interchange with the Jubilee or DLR, it's very much a destination station, the Canary Wharf group were very clear with that when they worked with us on the redesigning of the proposed station back in 2009".
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Post by phil on Mar 2, 2018 17:42:08 GMT
As for finding it, when the layout of the estate was designed the north dock (in which the station sits) was the northern boundary and so the buildings all focus inwards away from it, meaning it's sort of been built in a back alley. The location was chosen very much for ease of building the railway and station on top of it, rather than with consideration for passenger movement. Bus connections are particularly poor and interchange to either the DLR or Jubilee line stations requires navigating a shopping centre. In reality Canary Wharf is really 3 separate stations which happen to share the name and are in close proximity. A bit like railways built in the pre-grouping era where stations built by rival companies were built close together.... Interchanging between all 3 requires exiting one before entering another - and I believe that in reality interchange between the Jubilee line and the DLR is better done via Heron Quays rather than Canary Wharf DLR It might have been better to give each one a different name to accurately reflect the geographical situation - say "Canary Wharf (North Dock) for the Elizabeth Line say and "Canary Wharf (Central)" for the DLR |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 2, 2018 18:23:45 GMT
Heron Quays is indeed the better interchange for the Jubilee line, although Canary Wharf DLR can be reached entirely indoors (Heron Quays only mostly so). West India Quay is the closest DLR station to the Crossrail station, although (at least at present) the interchange is much longer. I believe that the bridge from Poplar DLR over Aspen Way will be extended to the Crossrail station (although I'm not sure which level it will arrive at) making that the simplest DLR interchange.
In the original proposal the Crossrail station was going to be called Isle of Dogs (even though that strictly starts at the South Dock according to at least some locals), but Canary Wharf Group said that if we're putting in all this money we want it to be called Canary Wharf and nobody had a good enough reason to veto it.
The simplest disambiguation would be to reflect common usage and append the line/mode name to the station - Canary Wharf DLR, Canary Wharf Jubilee and Canary Wharf Crossrail (although no doubt they'd officially want Canary Wharf Elizabeth (line), the building its in is called Crossrail Place and the monarchial name is not (yet?) in common usage).
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 2, 2018 22:31:00 GMT
I went to Canary Wharf too - the only unusual thing about it (apart from how hard it was to find) was the bright neon escalators. Huge station though. Has to be. It's got to fit a 200 metre long train... |
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Post by banana99 on Mar 2, 2018 23:54:14 GMT
I was at CW too. I was surprised to find that it....wasn't as big as I thought it was. The platform island doesn't appear to be much wider than the Jubilee Line station. They said 5m. I am sure that (as such) it will suffer from similar issues during the evening peak i.e. that the bottom of the escalators tip you out into a queue of people.
However a 200m platform looked very impressive. You will definitely have to get on at the correct end of the train!
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Post by banana99 on Mar 2, 2018 23:58:42 GMT
Technically the escalators are canary yellow not neon yellow, but I rather like them as it's a change from the usual grey concrete and silvery-grey metal (with occasional blue highlights if your lucky) we usually get these days. The light walls above the platform edge doors do a very good job of lighting the station without being harsh. They've done a much better job at that level than they have with most of the rest of the estate (although that's really not very difficult). As for finding it, when the layout of the estate was designed the north dock (in which the station sits) was the northern boundary and so the buildings all focus inwards away from it, meaning it's sort of been built in a back alley. The location was chosen very much for ease of building the railway and station on top of it, rather than with consideration for passenger movement. Bus connections are particularly poor and interchange to either the DLR or Jubilee line stations requires navigating a shopping centre. This isn't going to resonate with anyone on the CW estate. Everyone knows where it is and the major banks have ease of access. CW is a destination station and very very very very very few people will be interchanging. CW is a private estate and their only concern is people working at there. However that is rationale because there is little to no interchange. If people do want to interchange then it is quite easy and warm (despite it being a shopping mall) and much better than (say) Piccadilly to Jubilee at Green Park, or Jubilee to Bakerloo at Waterloo. 99.99% of people that get on or off at CW will not be affected by the concerns you raise. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2018 0:21:42 GMT
As someone who lives on the Isle of Dogs I can tell you that actually there will be plenty of people who would like to interchange to Crossrail and who will be interchanging if they can. Yes Canary Wharf is a destination, but it is also a transport hub for the area. It might be a small proportion of the total using the station, but that doesn't mean it's an insignificant number of people - just because Canary Wharf Group might not care about interchanges doesn't mean we don't/wont exist!
As for comparable interchanges, I do Jubilee to Piccadilly at Green Park regularly (it's the best way to China Town) and while it isn't a short walk it is shorter and easier than the interchange from JLE or DLR to Crossrail at Canary Wharf will be - the former is entirely under cover, with almost no possibility of taking a wrong turn, no shoppers to navigate round and all the routes and wayfinding are designed with the sole intention of getting people from A to B. The Jubilee-Bakerloo interchange at Waterloo is longer but the same applies (although unless your destination is Embankment, Charing Cross or Regents Park, changing at Greek Park or Baker Street is much better).
None of this is true at Canary Wharf where there will be no fully under cover route to Crossrail and you always have to navigate a shopping centre with mediocre signage, shoppers and routes designed to take you past shops and/or cross busy roads on the level.
While I might know that the best route to Heathrow with luggage could be use the DLR to Heron Quays, walk to the Jubilee line and change to Crossrail at Bond Street, anyone following the tube map will just see the apparently easy single DLR-Crossrail interchange at Canary Wharf.
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Post by banana99 on Mar 3, 2018 0:57:09 GMT
I accept your points as made Chris. But I would still contend that they are <1% of people using CW stations that are onward travellers beyond CW on to the Island or the rest of Tower Hamlets. Also the location of the station is going to be better placed for Barclays and HSBC and the tenants in 1CS than the Jubilee Line station. We can agree to disagree but I am sure the stats will support my position. Not saying that is ideal for local residents such as yourself either....
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Post by londonstuff on Mar 3, 2018 9:45:16 GMT
I agree with Chris M and phil. Some of the literature actually said around the station that they were also aiming their transport links at the ‘community in Poplar’ though quite how they’ll look at anything beyond the bankers, I don’t know. It’s almost analogous to the three West Hampstead stations but it seems a cynical move to build a station with all of the benefits that Crossrail will bring and make the interchange, which they know will look easy on a map, far far far from easy. You’d almost say that they did it deliberately. 🙄 |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2018 12:03:27 GMT
To be fair to the them, building the railway in another location would have been more difficult and thus more expensive (and would have allowed for less new retail space) but the interchange could have been so much better - for example a direct under cover link into the shopping centre would have been trivial and cost relative pennies, a direct behind-the-barriers pedestrian link below ground to the Jubilee line station would surely not have broken the bank (no pun intended). A direct, pedestrian link to the DLR platforms at Canary Wharf would have been tricky but probably not impossible (and likewise to West India Quay), however an indoor straight line walk from the western entrance to the Crossrail station to the DLR concourse level below the platforms would have been relatively simple to achieve.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 3, 2018 17:37:21 GMT
I was at CW too. I was surprised to find that it....wasn't as big as I thought it was. The platform island doesn't appear to be much wider than the Jubilee Line station. They said 5m. I am sure that (as such) it will suffer from similar issues during the evening peak i.e. that the bottom of the escalators tip you out into a queue of people. However a 200m platform looked very impressive. You will definitely have to get on at the correct end of the train! Not sure why it hadn't dawned on me before but the "lack" of width at platform level was something that I only really noticed on this visit. I was chatting to someone and said "not much bigger than the Jubilee Line station which was designed for 100 years of growth and look at that in the rush hour". The only real difference for Crossrail is the much, much greater station (and train) length. The challenge will be to get people to move along the platforms and away from escalator locations. I do wonder if Crossrail have made a possibly elementary "boo boo" in that most of the new stations have their entrances and exits at the ends of the trains and not in the middle. That might result in some uneven carriage loadings even with walk through trains. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 3, 2018 17:55:38 GMT
I agree with Chris M and phil. Some of the literature actually said around the station that they were also aiming their transport links at the ‘community in Poplar’ though quite how they’ll look at anything beyond the bankers, I don’t know. It’s almost analogous to the three West Hampstead stations but it seems a cynical move to build a station with all of the benefits that Crossrail will bring and make the interchange, which they know will look easy on a map, far far far from easy. You’d almost say that they did it deliberately. 🙄 The community in Poplar... they really said that?! Haha! I can't imagine their interest in it is not much beyond that of a human formicarium. There's a large element of contradiction going on here. If it was not designed for interchange, why are all three stations shown as an interchange on the tube map? No doubt it's an OSI, but so is West Ruislip and Ickenham, (and many others) and they aren't shown. Its a pet peeve of mine that physically separate stations are over-simplisticly shown as pleasant, convenient interchanges when actually one might have to cross a trunk road and walk 500 metres along an industrial estate in the pouring rain. |
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 3, 2018 20:40:29 GMT
Although Canary Wharf isn't exactly an industrial estate.
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Post by banana99 on Mar 3, 2018 21:10:43 GMT
To be fair to the them, building the railway in another location would have been more difficult and thus more expensive (and would have allowed for less new retail space) but the interchange could have been so much better - for example a direct under cover link into the shopping centre would have been trivial and cost relative pennies, a direct behind-the-barriers pedestrian link below ground to the Jubilee line station would surely not have broken the bank (no pun intended). A direct, pedestrian link to the DLR platforms at Canary Wharf would have been tricky but probably not impossible (and likewise to West India Quay), however an indoor straight line walk from the western entrance to the Crossrail station to the DLR concourse level below the platforms would have been relatively simple to achieve. Re the interchange, I suspect that they would like those interchanging to walk through the shopping centre rather than a dedicated corridor. And all it saves is a touch-out and in. Also I'm not sure that a "direct under cover link into the shopping centre" doesn't exist. Not all of it was open the other day, just the eastern end. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2018 21:33:41 GMT
I know the area pretty well and there are only two entrances to the Crossrail station - the eastern end which is a minute or so in the open away from a little used part of the shopping centre (although this could well get busier when crossrail services start) and the western end. The western end is a couple of minutes walk in the open at promenade level (the level you enter the station at) to he shopping centre (this will be the quickest way to the Jubilee line) or you can go up another level (under cover but not out the wind) and walk along a bridge that is covered but open to the elements at both ends (and thus was no warmer than outside on Wednesday), where you can cross the road (or walk a few 10s of metres to a crossing point - recommended during the day) and enter the shopping centre at this level (this will be the best route to the bus stop for buses to towards the Isle of Dogs; I suspect the routes will be roughly equidistant for buses in the opposite direction but only experience will say which is best).
Obviously they want you to walk via the shopping centre, as their goal is to get you to spend money on the estate (just look at how the escalators either side of the DLR are arranged). The goal of people using the transport hub however is to get from A to B as quickly and simply as possible while walking into as few people as possible. The two goals are very different.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 3, 2018 22:00:35 GMT
Although Canary Wharf isn't exactly an industrial estate. Maybe not in this instance, but if its been deliberately designed to not cater for interchange, then its hardly going to be as seamless an interchange as if it had been. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 3, 2018 22:01:40 GMT
Me and my Aunt were debating when we were down at platform level wether or not the Crossrail platforms were wider than those at the Jubilee line station, the Chief Engineer reckoned that Jubilee ones were wider but not by much. Measured 50 of my paces across the Crossrail platform, will get round to the Jubilee line later this week.
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Post by banana99 on Mar 3, 2018 23:33:15 GMT
I know the area pretty well and there are only two entrances to the Crossrail station - the eastern end which is a minute or so in the open away from a little used part of the shopping centre (although this could well get busier when crossrail services start) and the western end. The western end is a couple of minutes walk in the open at promenade level (the level you enter the station at) to he shopping centre (this will be the quickest way to the Jubilee line) or you can go up another level (under cover but not out the wind) and walk along a bridge that is covered but open to the elements at both ends (and thus was no warmer than outside on Wednesday), where you can cross the road (or walk a few 10s of metres to a crossing point - recommended during the day) and enter the shopping centre at this level (this will be the best route to the bus stop for buses to towards the Isle of Dogs; I suspect the routes will be roughly equidistant for buses in the opposite direction but only experience will say which is best). Obviously they want you to walk via the shopping centre, as their goal is to get you to spend money on the estate (just look at how the escalators either side of the DLR are arranged). The goal of people using the transport hub however is to get from A to B as quickly and simply as possible while walking into as few people as possible. The two goals are very different. You've listed more than 2. At least 3 and perhaps 4.  Like you I have not found a complete undercover/inside route to the Crossrail station yet. But that doesn't mean one won't exist. However, like you, I don't think one does. I am still in the "there will be little interchange between that various stations on the CWG Estate" camp. But willing to be proved incorrect on this. I suspect those with the purse strings feel the same otherwise we would have seen more dedicated infrastructure implementing such a hub. I do understand that there will be a direct connection from the Crossrail station to Poplar station so to the poster that mentioned Crossrail documentation apparently saying they would serve the population of poplar, would this satisfy your challenge? Me and my Aunt were debating when we were down at platform level wether or not the Crossrail platforms were wider than those at the Jubilee line station, the Chief Engineer reckoned that Jubilee ones were wider but not by much. Measured 50 of my paces across the Crossrail platform, will get round to the Jubilee line later this week. They looked very similar in width. I would not be surprised if it was wider than the JL station. But not by much. A wider platform would have meant a much higher cost of course. I guess they are relying on inward flows in the morning, and outward in the evening. But that doesn't help the JL station... <<superteacher: posts merged>>
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Post by Chris M on Mar 4, 2018 1:40:45 GMT
You've listed more than 2. At least 3 and perhaps 4. No there are only two entrances to the station (east and west), but two routes from the western entrance to the main part of the estate (level 0 via Adams Plaza and level 1 via the bridge). I am still in the "there will be little interchange between that various stations on the CWG Estate" camp. But willing to be proved incorrect on this. I suspect those with the purse strings feel the same otherwise we would have seen more dedicated infrastructure implementing such a hub. I agree that interchange flows will be the minority of traffic, but there will be more than you think. Just see how much a northbound DLR train empties at Heron Quays when the buses aren't serving Canary Wharf for example. The purse strings are predominantly held by Canary Wharf Group, and interchange traffic is basically an inconvenience to them unless they can get them to spend money in the shops as they pass. If TfL (or some other organisation whose business was transport) held the purse strings it would be very different. Me and my Aunt were debating when we were down at platform level wether or not the Crossrail platforms were wider than those at the Jubilee line station, the Chief Engineer reckoned that Jubilee ones were wider but not by much. Measured 50 of my paces across the Crossrail platform, will get round to the Jubilee line later this week. They looked very similar in width. I would not be surprised if it was wider than the JL station. But not by much. A wider platform would have meant a much higher cost of course. I guess they are relying on inward flows in the morning, and outward in the evening. But that doesn't help the JL station...[/quote] The JLE station is principally (but not exclusively) tidal, the problem comes from the sheer number of people wanting to go in both directions combined with the number of people passing through. I don't think that Crossrail flows are going to be much different - I predict a lot of "please move right down the platform" and "please use all available doors" messages on the PA. |
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Post by banana99 on Mar 4, 2018 2:16:24 GMT
The thing is, there is plenty of room on the JL platforms but no encouragement of passengers to squeeze up. As soon as the train arrives everyone gets a little more intimate.
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Post by rsdworker on Mar 4, 2018 20:34:56 GMT
well video by geoff said its wide - more simllar to N greenwitch station on island platforms
also there is step free routes - geoff showed one of lifts (background of him talking about it) - i believe there is 4 lifts - 2 from street to concourse (ticket hall) then 2 lifts to platform - i am not sure if its correct? - maybe there 3rd lift?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 9:27:53 GMT
I don't think the interchange aspect is quite as bad as it first appears. The distance from (at least) some of the platforms at Euston or Victoria to the bus stops at those stations is comparable in distance to the walk from Crossrail Place to the bus stop beneath the CW DLR station.
There is a walkway that is undercover - it runs from the western end of Crossrail Place down the side of the building occupied by the Financial Conduct Authority.
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