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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 20:48:59 GMT
On my recent journey on the class 345, I noticed one person trying to get off the train. He was standing right in front of the doors but didn't realize he had to press a button to open them (since all of the illuminating features are on the side panels) so I got up and pressed it for him and that got me thinking about the poor button layout of these trains. Basically, if you think about it, on the S stock, on the inside of the train, the button is in the middle so if you needed to press the button to open the doors, it would illuminate right in front of you so you would notice it and also conveniently be in the centre of the doorway where the doors open first to alight with ease. Similarly, on the outside of the trains, the buttons are on the outside edges of the doors so you're prompted to press it whilst standing out of the way to allow people off first which in my opinion is great design work. On the 345's however, all 4 illuminating areas (2 buttons, 2 warning lights) are on the edge of the doors on the inside leaving you to awkwardly reach out for the button or position yourself on the side of the doors to open the doors but have to let others off first. Rather unnecessarily, on the outside, the button and the speaker for the chimes are in the centre of the door prompting you to stand in the middle and walk right on before letting anyone off. It all seems rather pointless to have this sort of design and it feels like a backtrack on Bombardiers previous units. Is there a reason for this? I understand older trains having this side panel 'problem' but it seems like its something that should've been overcome in design research in the same way the armrests now cleverly have 2 levels to allow for 2 people to use them at once. I was just wondering if there's a specific reason for buttons not being in the 'correct' places; is it something to do with the doors in question being plug doors. I don't really know if there's even an answer to this, it's a somewhat petty subject and to be honest, it's not going to directly affect passenger experience. ![]()  Picture: London Reconnections |
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Post by domh245 on Nov 17, 2017 21:13:04 GMT
If anything, putting the buttons on the door isn't Bombardier's style - only the S stock have such an arrangement whilst their mainline trains have all had the buttons mounted on panels next to the doors. The use of plug doors is probably one of the main reasons for such an arrangement as it means the doors would have to pop out further to avoid fouling themselves. And I'm not really convinced that it is as much of a problem as you make out. In peak times, there'll be someone near enough to the doors to open them (or they'll all open automatically), and equally if there isn't anyone opening them you should be able to reach the buttons yourself.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 17, 2017 21:27:40 GMT
If anything, putting the buttons on the door isn't Bombardier's style - only the S stock have such an arrangement whilst their mainline trains have all had the buttons mounted on panels next to the doors. Are you sure? All the ____star range seem to have them on the door leaves, with the exception of the Cheapostars (the ones with hopper windows instead of air con). |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 21:39:15 GMT
And I'm not really convinced that it is as much of a problem as you make out. In peak times, there'll be someone near enough to the doors to open them (or they'll all open automatically), and equally if there isn't anyone opening them you should be able to reach the buttons yourself. I understand the whole reaching out bit isn't necessarily a problem which is why I added that last paragraph but I'm more focusing on the fact that the person I encountered is not going to be the only unobservant person to use public transport and he was very close to missing his stop which I've encountered others do on other services. To be honest, my biggest thought is passenger flow because having buttons in the middle on the outside gives those inconsiderate people an excuse to walk on before letting you off but public transport is supposed to be designed for optimum passenger flow. It just doesn't make sense to me; I can deal with the inside layout but when a station is busy, people crowd around doors to get on first and having a button in the centre may prompt people to not make way for someone alighting. |
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Post by domh245 on Nov 17, 2017 22:30:57 GMT
If anything, putting the buttons on the door isn't Bombardier's style - only the S stock have such an arrangement whilst their mainline trains have all had the buttons mounted on panels next to the doors. Are you sure? All the ____star range seem to have them on the door leaves, with the exception of the Cheapostars (the ones with hopper windows instead of air con). Certainly in terms of internal door buttons (which is what I presume we are talking about given the context of the original post) they aren't door mounted on any of the _stars. Externally, you are correct in that they all are mounted on the door leaves (barring the 2 fleets with plug doors, cheapostars and capitalstars) And I'm not really convinced that it is as much of a problem as you make out. In peak times, there'll be someone near enough to the doors to open them (or they'll all open automatically), and equally if there isn't anyone opening them you should be able to reach the buttons yourself. I understand the whole reaching out bit isn't necessarily a problem which is why I added that last paragraph but I'm more focusing on the fact that the person I encountered is not going to be the only unobservant person to use public transport and he was very close to missing his stop which I've encountered others do on other services. To be honest, my biggest thought is passenger flow because having buttons in the middle on the outside gives those inconsiderate people an excuse to walk on before letting you off but public transport is supposed to be designed for optimum passenger flow. It just doesn't make sense to me; I can deal with the inside layout but when a station is busy, people crowd around doors to get on first and having a button in the centre may prompt people to not make way for someone alighting. There'll always be some unobservant people, and you can't always have ways of getting around that without introducing unnecessary noise (" The door buttons are now activated") or plastering stickers over the door explaining it. I can only assume that the person in question is unfamiliar with travelling by train as more or less every train on the network has got door opening buttons off to the side. You do raise a good point about passengers trying to board whilst others are trying to disembark, and again, you'll always have selfish people like this. If they are trying to squeeze themselves through the smallest possible gap to get on the train ASAP despite seeing people in the windows waiting to get off, I suspect that they are beyond help and would try similar even if someone was also trying to emerge from said small gap to disembark. That said, there is some inherent mitigation around this - the wide doors means you should be able to have multiple people passing (I don't have any numbers, but some guesstimating places the width at 1700mm, which would be equivalent to S stock doors which I seem to remember are able to take 3 people side by side), and outside of the core section with PEDs, passengers likely won't be stood in the right place on the platform to open the doors as soon as they release, whereas internal passengers will be |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 18, 2017 0:30:27 GMT
Are you sure? All the ____star range seem to have them on the door leaves, with the exception of the Cheapostars. Certainly in terms of internal door buttons (which is what I presume we are talking about given the context of the original post) they aren't door mounted on any of the _stars. Externally, you are correct in that they all are mounted on the door leaves (barring the 2 fleets with plug doors, cheapostars and capitalstars) Sorry, I was thinking externally. The only stock I can think of with door controls on the doors are slam-door stock. |
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Post by reese on Jan 3, 2018 19:50:42 GMT
I'm in London for the week, so I decided to ride a 345 for the first time, and I noticed the exact same thing! Because of the connection to Heathrow, I can only imagine that the placement of the door buttons is not going to be very intuitive for tourists who might not have ever ridden a metro-style train before.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 3, 2018 20:32:03 GMT
What’s also annoying is that when the train is packed, standing passengers actually block access to the door buttons.
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Post by Chris M on Jan 3, 2018 21:22:03 GMT
To be honest, my biggest thought is passenger flow because having buttons in the middle on the outside gives those inconsiderate people an excuse to walk on before letting you off but public transport is supposed to be designed for optimum passenger flow. It just doesn't make sense to me; I can deal with the inside layout but when a station is busy, people crowd around doors to get on first and having a button in the centre may prompt people to not make way for someone alighting. That's exactly why the newer DLR stock (2007 onwards) have external door buttons only on the edges of the doors. Internally they have them in the centre of the doorway and on the door pillars, and this does work so I'm surprised to see TfL specifying anything else. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 3, 2018 23:17:06 GMT
I thought that when calling at underground stations the train doors will open automatically - together with the platform doors.
Simon
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 23:32:02 GMT
I thought that when calling at underground stations the train doors will open automatically - together with the platform doors. Simon They will but not on above-ground stations which are still very busy |
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Post by jpd888 on Jan 4, 2018 0:05:58 GMT
There's only so much that can be done to account for passengers not noticing. If the doors don't open automatically, surely the instinct to search for a button would kick in?
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Post by alpinejohn on Jan 5, 2018 10:52:15 GMT
ethano92345 makes a very valid observation - which I do think anyone involved in TFL rolling stock procurement should be alert to.
With ever greater pressure to squeeze more trains on our existing routes - then minimising station dwell time becomes a major challenge which is not going to be helped by this sloppy design choice.
I could understand this choice for rolling stock on low intensity routes but not for rolling stock planned for use on high passenger volume routes.
To minimise dwell time often seemingly small changes can deliver big improvements - so I wonder how long before someone insists the stock is sent back to the manufacturers and modified to the sort of S8/S7 set up?
You do not need to be a rocket scientist to realise that you want to do everything possible to encourage people waiting outside the train to stand well to the side of the opening and let people off first - so the logical place for the external door button is off to the side of the door, with the reverse applying for internal buttons.
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Post by ted672 on Jan 31, 2018 20:41:28 GMT
Having recently become a daily user of the 345s, I've seen several instances of people wondering why the doors aren't opening and then someone standing in front of the button gives it a push. No doubt regular users will get used to this.
I have noticed, though that not all the doors close at the same time. Given that there isn't a close button as on the 315s, is there some kind of automated feature in use, or does one pair of doors per car close after the others for the benefit, or frustration, of runners?
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Post by domh245 on Jan 31, 2018 21:14:55 GMT
I'd expect that there will be an auto-close system as seen on pretty much all other modern mainline stock, and the S stock, where the doors close automatically after a period of time to keep the Air Conditioning effective. When the driver presses the doors close button in the cab, any open doors should then shut simultaneously.
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