Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Oct 22, 2017 19:45:23 GMT
Just seen on a fb group, suggestions that the new Asset Inspection Train, that was only fairly recently created/rebuilt to replace the Cravens (not to mention extended from 4 to six car formation), is instead of being used to be scrapped.
Can anyone shed any light on this, or hopefully debunk it? Seems nuts!
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Post by bassmike on Oct 23, 2017 11:09:17 GMT
Why do you need a special train for A T ?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 23, 2017 12:17:07 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Oct 23, 2017 12:45:44 GMT
Please note I have no recent info so this is speculation on my part. The "new" AIT was an issue well over 5 years when I was still in LU. The idea was basically a good one - replacing a worn out asset. However there were real problems back then with justifying a whole load of spend on specialist Transplant vehicles and the AIT was part of that issue. IIRC the plan was to use former 67 stock cars sandwiched around the clever recording cars in the middle. I think there were then problems about the weight and power of the train and that's where I lose track with developments. However we are now 5 years on, money is very much tighter and I dare say asset inspection regimes and technology have moved on because of the night tube. I would not be shocked if someone has taken a look and said "this project has been ongoing for over 5 years with no result for what should be a simple thing. There's no prospect of it ever running so kill it." That debate was raging over 5 years ago so I'd not be shocked if someone has now actually wielded the knife. I could, of course, be completely wrong so treat the above with due caution until someone in the know makes a statement.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 23, 2017 12:52:13 GMT
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Post by trt on Oct 23, 2017 13:55:42 GMT
Nice. That there chart of expenditure has some quite high figures in it.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 23, 2017 14:02:53 GMT
Nice. That there chart of expenditure has some quite high figures in it. I thought you'd all like it!
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Post by snoggle on Oct 23, 2017 14:08:39 GMT
Nice. That there chart of expenditure has some quite high figures in it. Goodness roundly ÂŁ6m over a 10 year period with nothing operating at the end of it. I suspect my musings may prove correct about someone saying "enough is enough". They could possibly have bought a brand new LU spec unit for not much more than that. Recognising that there are particular tunnel clearance issues on LU that standard rail vehicles may not meet and thus a customised product might be necessary. LU can't be the only Metro in the world that has to conduct inspections of its track assets so someone must make machines that fit in tunnels.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 23, 2017 14:37:53 GMT
Given that Schweerbau (sp?) made at least one rial grinder that can fit in the (Northern line) tunnels, it does seem quite likely that buying something off-the-shelf (ish) would be possible.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 23, 2017 15:16:46 GMT
Is it just "project creep" or "gold-plating" - technology keeps inventing extra ideas or possible improvements which it would be a "good idea" to add - perfection is the enemy of the "good enough".
I can't imagine that the problem is with the running gear though: given it has to be Tube-sized, an existing running chassis is the obvious platform for a one-off system, even if the innards are off-the-shelf and/or state-of-the-art.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 15:41:32 GMT
I believe one of the main problems with the new AIT is it is underpowered. The TRV is currently in acton works for bogie overhaul, so I think they plan to keep it a while longer.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 23, 2017 15:46:52 GMT
I believe one of the main problems with the new AIT is it is underpowered. . Isn't that why the two extra DM cars were added?
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Post by fish7373 on Oct 23, 2017 15:47:41 GMT
I believe one of the main problems with the new AIT is it is underpowered. The TRV is currently in acton works for bogie overhaul, so I think they plan to keep it a while longer. It has 4 motor cars how can it be underpowered.
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Post by piccboy on Oct 23, 2017 19:03:32 GMT
I believe one of the main problems with the new AIT is it is underpowered. The TRV is currently in acton works for bogie overhaul, so I think they plan to keep it a while longer. It has 4 motor cars how can it be underpowered. Just wondering if the issue with being underpowered relates to AC power for all the track inspection equipment on board? The MA's (Motor Alternator's, use DC power to create AC power). On the 72's, the MA's were only meant to supply 2 cars of lighting, battery charger and 50v control power, hence the need for 4 motor cars. 4 MA's.
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Post by fish7373 on Oct 23, 2017 19:51:20 GMT
It has 4 motor cars how can it be underpowered. Just wondering if the issue with being underpowered relates to AC power for all the track inspection equipment on board? The MA's (Motor Alternator's, use DC power to create AC power). On the 72's, the MA's were only meant to supply 2 cars of lighting, battery charger and 50v control power, hence the need for 4 motor cars. 4 MA's. The power side of train is OK no issues only two M/As on train the AC power run off seperate system for track inspection equipment run off the APUs seperate from traction what killed it no one will pay for all the different signaling equipment and there is no room on the train to fit it all to say.
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Post by br7mt on Oct 23, 2017 22:21:18 GMT
No issues with traction, made sure of that with the two extra 67TS cars and that part is all proven. Unfortunately reality is once you get that late with a major project, every single little problem magnifies many times and around January 2015 one problem led to another, continuity of key personnel was lost, project ended up paused and has ultimately led to cancellation this year.
Signalling systems were not a problem, TBTC design virtually complete, Central line could have been fitted and 4LM was in the pipeline. Same safe system of work that TRV uses could have been used until they were fully signed off.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by dagdave on Oct 24, 2017 13:36:41 GMT
The project was conceived in 2006 and was a long drawn out one beset with problems which were largely overcome. I don't really want to speculate on here as to why it wasn't finished but on the positive side the TRV Cravens have been undergoing a major overhaul at Acton Works to extend their life. Also, although much of the TRV's recording equipment is old, it is proven and reliable. The most likely way forward to enable track recording to continue in years to come, and to cope with new signalling systems, is to have a Track Recording wagon running between locos equipped with the relevant signalling equipment. This project is in its infancy. It seems the original TRV might just see me to retirement after all.
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roythebus
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Post by roythebus on Oct 24, 2017 18:51:38 GMT
One of the joys of modern off-the-shelf signalling designed to be totally incompatible with anything else! We never had this problem with real signals and train stops.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 5:17:53 GMT
One of the joys of modern off-the-shelf signalling designed to be totally incompatible with anything else! We never had this problem with real signals and train stops. Couldn’t agree more
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Post by dagdave on Oct 25, 2017 6:59:18 GMT
Yes, new signalling systems are the bane of our life on the TRV. We've got ATP and would have had TBTC had it not been for the AIT. Someone decided not to go ahead and fit it to the TRV because the AIT was always "imminent". Our next challenge will be the new signalling system we've just been told starts to go live Hammersmith to Latimer road next May which is earlier than expected.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 16:15:39 GMT
I believe one of the main problems with the new AIT is it is underpowered. The TRV is currently in acton works for bogie overhaul, so I think they plan to keep it a while longer. It has 4 motor cars how can it be underpowered. Sorry, just going what I was told a while ago.
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Post by phil on Oct 25, 2017 20:07:07 GMT
Sounds a bit like LUs attempt to create something like Network Rails "New Measurement train" (a HST displaced from front line service a decade or so ago with loads if high tech cameras, sensors, computers etc that are so accurate they can detect missing pandrol clips while travelling at over 100mph etc). While obviously LU will not need to measure things at that higher speed, the concept of an 'all lines' measurement train that could cover most of the network every 6 weeks and remove the need for manual patrols has merit.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Oct 26, 2017 15:22:20 GMT
I suppose, conveniently, it releases 2x3 car units. Wonder how easy it would be to fit them out as RATs.
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Post by fish7373 on Oct 26, 2017 17:43:11 GMT
I have said this turn the AIT in to a RAT Train which is good idea in fact.
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Post by t697 on Nov 16, 2017 19:23:13 GMT
I think some of the cars will be used as a haulage unit for the forthcoming Central line 92TS works to be undertaken at Acton.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2017 19:58:35 GMT
I think some of the cars will be used as a haulage unit for the forthcoming Central line 92TS works to be undertaken at Acton. Not at all. The old MPU (Originally built to haul a vacuum car) is being converted for that use, but they are talking about cancelling and just driving trains to acton at night in engineering hours.
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Post by t697 on Nov 16, 2017 20:09:05 GMT
Sorry, thanks for correcting me.
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Post by MoreToJack on Nov 16, 2017 23:17:01 GMT
I think some of the cars will be used as a haulage unit for the forthcoming Central line 92TS works to be undertaken at Acton. Not at all. The old MPU (Originally built to haul a vacuum car) is being converted for that use, but they are talking about cancelling and just driving trains to acton at night in engineering hours. This is the most logical solution. An ITMP (Incompatible Train Movements Procedure) already exists to transfer 1996 and S stock between Ealing Common and Rayners Lane - and vice versa - and the mitigations against signal interferance in this would also be suitable for the 1992 stock.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Nov 17, 2017 23:38:12 GMT
A few years ago there was mention of how the battery fleet was starting to struggle with the increasing loads required to be hauled. In this context, would not the increased horsepower of coupled multiple unit cars prove useful, albeit in limited situations and with traction current on?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2017 17:47:53 GMT
A few years ago there was mention of how the battery fleet was starting to struggle with the increasing loads required to be hauled. In this context, would not the increased horsepower of coupled multiple unit cars prove useful, albeit in limited situations and with traction current on? It would be very limited. You are limited to max train lengths and traction currently only. Can't see it really working unless you make certain 'trains' for certain uses like the TRV, AIT, RAT or MPU.
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