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Post by A60stock on Sept 10, 2017 17:40:54 GMT
Does anyone know what will happen to the 377s currently in use on the thameslink route? I thought they were going to have phased them out at the same time as the 319s. The 319s are clearly gone, but i still see the 377s, are thameslink keeping these for much longer?
I was under the impression that these were going to Great Northern, but it seems they took the wiser decision to use the 387s which are probably alot me technically advanced?
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Post by superteacher on Sept 10, 2017 18:10:07 GMT
Does anyone know what will happen to the 377s currently in use on the thameslink route? I thought they were going to have phased them out at the same time as the 319s. The 319s are clearly gone, but i still see the 377s, are thameslink keeping these for much longer? I was under the impression that these were going to Great Northern, but it seems they took the wiser decision to use the 387s which are probably alot me technically advanced? Apparently they will be gone at some point this month.
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Post by domh245 on Sept 10, 2017 18:23:07 GMT
That batch of 377s are going to South Eastern. Several have been working there for a while already, the rest are currently in the process of being transferred over. As for when they are being withdrawn, it's this week or the next. I haven't seen any firm dates though, only quotes to the effect of "this week (w/c 11-09-2017) all Thameslink Core services will be 700s" and "week after (w/c 18-09-2017) all currently branded Thameslink services will be 700s". And finally, the Great Northern Situation - As I understand it, the 387s were taken as they were available sooner than the 377s, allowing some of their stock to be cascaded away (317s to GA, 321s to Scotland via Doncaster to have a vehicle removed). Technologically, they are fairly similar - one of the biggest differences being the interior layout (2+2 throughout instead of 2+3)
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Post by jukes on Sept 10, 2017 21:03:21 GMT
The main reason I am told that 387s were taken by GN is that they are 110mph capable (whereas the 377s are not) so that they can get through the Welwyn two track section quicker. That has an effect on paths etc as the IEP will soon be in service so the quicker the better. 19x4 car 365s are being retained tho. There will remain some compromise for now. However there may be some other moves afoot to replace them in the medium term so I guess watch for developments. One interesting thought is that the GA Class 379s will become available in about 26 months time and they are capable of being up-geared from 100 mph to 110mph. Even at 100 their acceleration is better than the 377s.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 10, 2017 22:05:44 GMT
Surprised they aren't going to be used to replace the 313s on Coastway services
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Post by A60stock on Sept 11, 2017 12:10:58 GMT
Surprised they aren't going to be used to replace the 313s on Coastway services Agreed, it seems that there is going to be a surplus of spare rolling stock in the future. Does anyone know what will happen to the re-tractioned and refurbished 321s with GA, once these are replaced?
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Post by jukes on Sept 11, 2017 13:36:03 GMT
Surprised they aren't going to be used to replace the 313s on Coastway services Agreed, it seems that there is going to be a surplus of spare rolling stock in the future. Does anyone know what will happen to the re-tractioned and refurbished 321s with GA, once these are replaced? No idea! But at the moment over the next 30 months the following will become surplus: approx 75 or so 321s; up to 43x323; 37x350/2; (probably 10x350/4s); 21x360/0; 5x360/2; 21x365; 30x379; - plus I should imagine the 313s from GN will be scrapped. I imagine all the 315s and 317s too. As to the fate of the 319s less the bi-mode flex conversions - it's anyones guess.
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Post by wimblephil on Sept 12, 2017 18:25:52 GMT
Could any end up up north? Don't they need to do away the pacers..? Or are these told old to likely have a second life?
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Post by domh245 on Sept 12, 2017 19:02:36 GMT
From what I've heard, their longer term future lies with Southern. As certain Southern Routes (to Horsham, Littlehampton, and others) get taken over by Thameslink, the non Dual Voltage 377s released by that will transfer to South Eastern, allowing these 377/5s to come back to Southern, which will allow for strengthened services in the Metro Area, and on WLL services to Milton Keynes where their Dual Voltage capabilities are of use. As it stands, the only units for which there is a plan for diesel-ing and sending 't'North' are 319s, whilst there are also plans for dieseling D78s but looks set to not pick up any orders. The pacer disposal program is largely sorted (in the north and south west anyway. Wales is a different matter altogether) but these more modern stocks are less likely to be dieseled, especially when there are already large numbers of them around in the south, for which the ROSCOs have an almost guaranteed customer should services need strengthening.
Also, I should point out that the Last day in service for Class 377s on Thameslink was Sunday the 10th and they are all now either out of service being prepared to go to SouthEastern, or already at SouthEastern
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 12, 2017 20:42:50 GMT
New class 331s and 397s, together with the displaced 319s, will account for any Pacers which can be replaced by electric units, and there seems little appetite for more electrification anywhere in the country after the current projects are completed (quite the reverse) so I doubt that there is any scope for 377s "up North".
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 12, 2017 20:54:29 GMT
Its so frustrating that electrification has been kicked into the long grass by this current transport minister. So many services are crying out to be lengthened across the country, yet the lack of infrastructure prevents cascades. Some of the stock surely has ten or so years of design life left in them
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 12, 2017 20:54:45 GMT
Could any end up up north? Don't they need to do away the pacers..? Or are these told old to likely have a second life? Assuming you're talking about 319s, some have already moved north and operate the various electric services out of Line Street. Their arrival allowed a pacer shuffle to occur such that (much to the delight of HWMBO) many services diagrammed for a cl150 now have a pacer hung on the back to boost capacity.
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Post by sawb on Sept 12, 2017 21:11:33 GMT
Surprised they aren't going to be used to replace the 313s on Coastway services Agreed, it seems that there is going to be a surplus of spare rolling stock in the future. Does anyone know what will happen to the re-tractioned and refurbished 321s with GA, once these are replaced? The class 321s are almost certainly being scrapped, mainly because the units will be between 29 and 31 years old. There is also the issue that they are non-RVAR compliant, and, form 2019, will not be compliant with the regulations around all trains needing to have retention toilets, and it probably won't be seen worthwhile to have them fitted with the required alterations when they will be withdrawn in a maximum of another 10 years, with most being withdrawn in less than that.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 12, 2017 22:38:49 GMT
Its so frustrating that electrification has been kicked into the long grass by this current transport minister. So many services are crying out to be lengthened across the country, yet the lack of infrastructure prevents cascades. Some of the stock surely has ten or so years of design life left in them True but two problems. Firstly it may well take more than 10 years to electrify some routes based on current NR progress. Secondly many stakeholders / politicians will curl their nose up at getting "cast offs" from the South East. I suspect passengers wouldn't care if trains are refurbed and they are reliable. However passengers don't vote on what money gets spent where. It is a crying shame that we had so much rationalisation of infrastructure from the 60s onwards which has meant the loss of platforms, passing places and shortening of platforms. All of this means added cost in doing the relatively simple thing of redeploying stock that is / will become spare. I suspect we will see a lot of stock go to the scrap heap prematurely unless people come up with some clever ideas to reuse EMUs. One example could be an electric regional service from say Darlington to Berwick / Alnmouth serving the stops on the route. There are issues with that because of the intensity of East Coast / TPE / X Country trains plus freight but you at least have the electric infrastructure and platforms in place.
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Post by wimblephil on Sept 13, 2017 5:52:41 GMT
Could any end up up north? Don't they need to do away the pacers..? Or are these told old to likely have a second life? Assuming you're talking about 319s, some have already moved north and operate the various electric services out of Line Street. Their arrival allowed a pacer shuffle to occur such that (much to the delight of HWMBO) many services diagrammed for a cl150 now have a pacer hung on the back to boost capacity. Yes apologies, despite the thread topic, I had been referring to the post above mine re: other stock becoming surplus to requirements. I can see where quoting can be a good feature! Although to be honest, I had completely overlooked the issue of electrification with my very simplistic thought there...!
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Post by superteacher on Sept 13, 2017 6:06:18 GMT
Agreed, it seems that there is going to be a surplus of spare rolling stock in the future. Does anyone know what will happen to the re-tractioned and refurbished 321s with GA, once these are replaced? The class 321s are almost certainly being scrapped, mainly because the units will be between 29 and 31 years old. There is also the issue that they are non-RVAR compliant, and, form 2019, will not be compliant with the regulations around all trains needing to have retention toilets, and it probably won't be seen worthwhile to have them fitted with the required alterations when they will be withdrawn in a maximum of another 10 years, with most being withdrawn in less than that. Can't see the 321's being scrapped straight after refurbishment and retractioning. Doesn't make any sense.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 13, 2017 6:58:25 GMT
Can't see the 321's being scrapped straight after refurbishment and retractioning. Doesn't make any sense. That's what's happening on SWR though - extensive retractioning of 455s and refurbishment of 456s and 458s over the last few years, now all for the chop. The 321s are of the same basic design as the 455s and 456s (and slightly older than the 456s), and a whole decade older than the 458s.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 13, 2017 7:00:22 GMT
Can't see the 321's being scrapped straight after refurbishment and retractioning. Doesn't make any sense. That's what's happening on SWR though - extensive retractioning of 455s and refurbishment of 456s and 458s over the last few years, now all for the chop. The 321s are of the same basic design as the 455s and 456s (and slightly older than the 456s), and a whole decade older than the 458s. This is the problem with National Rail - no overall co-ordinated plan.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 13, 2017 10:00:21 GMT
This is the problem with National Rail - no overall co-ordinated plan. The lack of overall co-ordinated plan is indeed a problem, but I think the blame for that lies with Network Rail, the DfT and the franchising system rather than with the TOCs.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 13, 2017 10:05:59 GMT
This is the problem with National Rail - no overall co-ordinated plan. The lack of overall co-ordinated plan is indeed a problem, but I think the blame for that lies with Network Rail, the DfT and the franchising system rather than with the TOCs. Agreed. It's ridiculous that Greater Anglia are spending millions of pounds on the 321's when they may be destined for the scrap heap. The trains could quite easily last in their current form until they are replaced by new stock in 3 years time. The money could be much better spent elsewhere.
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Post by crusty54 on Sept 13, 2017 10:43:28 GMT
The lack of overall co-ordinated plan is indeed a problem, but I think the blame for that lies with Network Rail, the DfT and the franchising system rather than with the TOCs. Agreed. It's ridiculous that Greater Anglia are spending millions of pounds on the 321's when they may be destined for the scrap heap. The trains could quite easily last in their current form until they are replaced by new stock in 3 years time. The money could be much better spent elsewhere. Greater Anglia are not paying for the work. New train costs to lease are less than the old trains and easier to maintain.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 13, 2017 10:45:59 GMT
Agreed. It's ridiculous that Greater Anglia are spending millions of pounds on the 321's when they may be destined for the scrap heap. The trains could quite easily last in their current form until they are replaced by new stock in 3 years time. The money could be much better spent elsewhere. Greater Anglia are not paying for the work. New train costs to lease are less than the old trains and easier to maintain. So who is paying for the refurbs?
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Post by br7mt on Sept 13, 2017 11:54:17 GMT
Greater Anglia are not paying for the work. New train costs to lease are less than the old trains and easier to maintain. So who is paying for the refurbs? The ROSCO (Rolling Stock Company) e.g. Eversholt Rail, which then gets back the capital outlay through increased leasing costs to the TOC. Regards, Dan
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Post by superteacher on Sept 13, 2017 11:58:10 GMT
So who is paying for the refurbs? The ROSCO (Rolling Stock Company) e.g. Eversholt Rail, which then gets back the capital outlay through increased leasing costs to the TOC. Regards, Dan Cheers, but if the 321's end up being scrapped, where is the leasing cost coming from?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 13, 2017 11:59:47 GMT
It's a gamble by the ROSCO.
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Post by crusty54 on Sept 13, 2017 13:01:48 GMT
It's a gamble by the ROSCO. And only 10 units are being upgraded.
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Post by phil on Sept 15, 2017 17:09:03 GMT
Can't see the 321's being scrapped straight after refurbishment and retractioning. Doesn't make any sense. That's what's happening on SWR though - extensive retractioning of 455s and refurbishment of 456s and 458s over the last few years, now all for the chop. The 321s are of the same basic design as the 455s and 456s (and slightly older than the 456s), and a whole decade older than the 458s. However the 455s do have a ace in their pocket by being DC units. As with the 319s, this DC ability is key to being able to cheaply convert them to bi-modes, using underfloor engines to generate a 750V DC supply to fool the traction gear it is working off 3rd rail. Also if the numbers work out right then you could simply move the re-tractioned SWR 455s over to Southern and ditch their 455 fleet that still have the original BR traction gear installed. By contrast its not easy to produce a diesel engine that outputs 25KV which then means you cannot perform the same trick with the likes of the 321s. Given the number of much newer AC units being displaced in the next few years as the result of recent franchise awards, and the use of high platforms in the UK (which means they cannot be flogged off to the likes of Byulgaria as has occured with a number of 25KV locomotives) then the scrapheap remains the most likely destination for them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 21:26:06 GMT
That's what's happening on SWR though - extensive retractioning of 455s and refurbishment of 456s and 458s over the last few years, now all for the chop. The 321s are of the same basic design as the 455s and 456s (and slightly older than the 456s), and a whole decade older than the 458s. However the 455s do have a ace in their pocket by being DC units. As with the 319s, this DC ability is key to being able to cheaply convert them to bi-modes, using underfloor engines to generate a 750V DC supply to fool the traction gear it is working off 3rd rail. Also if the numbers work out right then you could simply move the re-tractioned SWR 455s over to Southern and ditch their 455 fleet that still have the original BR traction gear installed. By contrast its not easy to produce a diesel engine that outputs 25KV which then means you cannot perform the same trick with the likes of the 321s. Given the number of much newer AC units being displaced in the next few years as the result of recent franchise awards, and the use of high platforms in the UK (which means they cannot be flogged off to the likes of Byulgaria as has occured with a number of 25KV locomotives) then the scrapheap remains the most likely destination for them. Maybe the remaining 321's could go to either Northern or GWR or have 3rd rail pickups retrofitted and put on Southern or Southeastern? That's my theory that could happen we never know.
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Post by domh245 on Sept 24, 2017 21:45:35 GMT
However the 455s do have a ace in their pocket by being DC units. As with the 319s, this DC ability is key to being able to cheaply convert them to bi-modes, using underfloor engines to generate a 750V DC supply to fool the traction gear it is working off 3rd rail. Also if the numbers work out right then you could simply move the re-tractioned SWR 455s over to Southern and ditch their 455 fleet that still have the original BR traction gear installed. By contrast its not easy to produce a diesel engine that outputs 25KV which then means you cannot perform the same trick with the likes of the 321s. Given the number of much newer AC units being displaced in the next few years as the result of recent franchise awards, and the use of high platforms in the UK (which means they cannot be flogged off to the likes of Byulgaria as has occured with a number of 25KV locomotives) then the scrapheap remains the most likely destination for them. Maybe the remaining 321's could go to either Northern or GWR or have 3rd rail pickups retrofitted and put on Southern or Southeastern? That's my theory that could happen we never know. The only move that would make sense would be Northern, but even then it is just changing one past-it stock (319s) with another. It's especially unlikely as there are 2 separate Rolling Stock Leasing Companies (ROSCOs) involved - if it were just the one, it is possible that they would offer the TOC an upgrade, but not a chance of that happening if it involves going from one ROSCO to another. A move to GWR would be a distinct downgrade from the current(ly being introduced!) stock. Modern, Air conditioned, PRM-TSI compliant, DOO ready units with a good 30 to 40 years at least in them, or the 321s, which are nearing the end of their lives - I know which ones make sense from an operator's and passenger's perspective! As for fitting them with Shoegear, I believe that was the whole point of phil's post - these units do not have a 750V Bus as you would find in more modern units and in DC only ones, they step the 25kV down to a more manageable voltage but don't rectify it, leaving them with a lower voltage, AC supply to drive motors and so on, and rectified for control equipment and other fittings as necessary. And even then, why would you go for these older units which would need work when there are both newer units (458/5s, 707s) and older units (319s) which are ready to operate on the 3rd rail with no work required at all?
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on Sept 24, 2017 23:18:17 GMT
Although interesting, we are heading away from the OP.
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