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Post by philthetube on May 11, 2017 3:56:55 GMT
I agree with with this, just look at the generally abrasive strike inducing management style of LUL in general, evident from the Incident at London bridge, and from general postings on this board and the Guardian and Times newspapers. Those youngsters or kiddies are unsuitable as Managers, as they lack the soft skills necessary to run a proper team. Sorry for being so blunt about this, but the whole system needs reform, with Decent experienced management. There are many decent managers within LUL, but, unfortunately those inexperienced managers tarnish LUL's reputation for everyone, and should be shot! Regarding the London Bridge fare dodger incident, it should have been brought to a Court of Law to decide who is wrong, not an inept LUL manager. For this to end up as a dispute someone is inept, the police are obviously uninterested so nothing seriously wrong happened. Someone has made a decision and nobody is prepared to admit it was wrong, if the decision was correct the evidence would be on the table by now. |
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Post by brigham on May 11, 2017 14:31:45 GMT
Problems are bound to arise when 'Management' becomes a profession in its own right, and not a job within the industry itself.
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Post by jamesb on May 11, 2017 14:58:02 GMT
I was on a train yesterday where the cab door was open, for part of a journey between stations, and we all survived. If the driver has his hand on the TBC, he is holding onto something and if he lets go the train would stop.
To put it a different way, how many drivers have been flung violently against the closed cab side door during the course of their routine duties, causing injury to them or the door? None, I suspect. I have never seen a driver appearing to cling onto objects in the cab for dear life, as the train is pulling into the station. It is a tube cab, not a space shuttle.
Having a bit of a breeze on a hot day is more likely to enhance safety - if it keeps the driver alert and awake, and focused on the track ahead. Instead of feeling sleepy in a stuffy cab.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 11, 2017 16:05:13 GMT
Problems are bound to arise when 'Management' becomes a profession in its own right, and not a job within the industry itself. Management requires a different skill set to the jobs of those being managed, and being good at one does not necessarily translate into being good at the other. You need to understand the job of the people you manage but you don't necessarily have to be able to do it yourself. |
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on May 11, 2017 20:17:01 GMT
TRue,Chris M,but by far the best solution is that those who have aspirations to manage should have spent at least a little while being managed in the roles they are expected to eventually supervise.
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Post by Chris M on May 11, 2017 21:02:28 GMT
Not always.
They should spend time with the people they are managing, but it would be a waste of everybody's time and resources to train a manager as a train driver just to experience being a train driver for a short while. What if you are managing instructor operators also - do you have to gain experience teaching others to drive trains?
If your role is to manage a depot, do you need to have experience as train preparer, train maintainer, electrician, welder, fitter, depot driver, tower controller, etc,
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 21:12:06 GMT
If a manager in LUL, after a few years of service, cannot identify or explain the reasoning behind a Benkler Joint, Axle Counter, or Track Section Interlocking, it does not bode well for a Manager.
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Post by Chris M on May 11, 2017 23:18:19 GMT
Maybe. It depends on what the role the manager has - a manager of track patrollers should certainly be able to identify an axle counter and understand it's function, but would a manger of revenue protection staff need to? In contrast I'd expect the revenue protection manager to be able to identify a gateline control unit, how to recognise the signs of impending overcrowding in a ticket hall and what actions to take to avoid a dangerous situation, but I wouldn't expect the track patroller manager to have that knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 0:05:00 GMT
To put it a different way, how many drivers have been flung violently against the closed cab side door during the course of their routine duties, causing injury to them or the door? None, I suspect. I have never seen a driver appearing to cling onto objects in the cab for dear life You've clearly not spent any time on the Central Line, particularly in the Woodford area! |
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Post by stapler on May 12, 2017 7:08:24 GMT
Rough riding on the NE extremities of the Central Line; yes kingsiwel- quite agree; but does it really imperil the position of the driver? They generally look well ensconced in their cockpit to me, and reclining and relaxed as if settling down to Match of the Day!
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 12, 2017 8:49:11 GMT
The east end of the Central Line is a bit bumpy, I'd say Epping-Theydon-Debden is probably more bumpy than around Woodford but not bad enough to throw a driver out of their seat (although I'm a bit on the large size). As I mentioned in my original comment it would get reported long before it ever got that bad as it would be as more of a danger to passengers than to the driver, if it was bad enough to throw us out of our seats it would be carnage in the saloons. Especially on a Friday night with all the drunks.........
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Post by crusty54 on May 12, 2017 9:06:35 GMT
Problems are bound to arise when 'Management' becomes a profession in its own right, and not a job within the industry itself. Management requires a different skill set to the jobs of those being managed, and being good at one does not necessarily translate into being good at the other. You need to understand the job of the people you manage but you don't necessarily have to be able to do it yourself. The problems started at London Underground when many senior managers (who had worked their way up through the ranks) were paid off and replaced with MBA Graduates who had no idea how to run a real business let alone a railway. To be a good manager you have to earn the respect of your staff. It is essential that you know what they do and how they do it. The previous arrangement of a graduate training scheme had worked well whereby you were placed in posts and given time to learn. Probably the best example is Sir Peter Hendy but there are many others. They seem to have reverted to this type of scheme now. |
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Post by drainrat on May 13, 2017 19:23:10 GMT
Those youngsters or kiddies are unsuitable as Managers, as they lack the soft skills necessary to run a proper team. Sorry for being so blunt about this, but the whole system needs reform, with Decent experienced management. I think you'll find those youngsters and kiddies are in their 40s. They're hardly fresh off the graduate scheme. Can you take your axe and grind it somewhere else? But there are a lot of youngsters and kiddies, maybe not where you are, but they are out there I'm afraid 😉 However, I'd say that's more of a nationwide corporate policy than just a TfL one, designed by think-tanks and all that |
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Post by drainrat on May 13, 2017 19:35:36 GMT
To put it a different way, how many drivers have been flung violently against the closed cab side door during the course of their routine duties, causing injury to them or the door? None, I suspect. I have never seen a driver appearing to cling onto objects in the cab for dear life You've clearly not spent any time on the Central Line, particularly in the Woodford area! Never been flung out of the seat, worst side play (recorded by WBV equpt) is over the points at Roding Valley jct west, but is short distance and certainly doesn't sling you out the seat, also, there is a speed restriction there which is more as a damage limitation to the points than because of a rough ride. Go back to the previous seats we had, and people were being thrown out of the drivers seat but we were also travelling at 102kph over rough track too, I dealt with many Leytonstone cases of driver injuries up u til the sped limiting of 85kph and the intro of the new seats 😉 |
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Post by drainrat on May 13, 2017 19:42:23 GMT
I was on a train yesterday where the cab door was open, for part of a journey between stations, and we all survived. If the driver has his hand on the TBC, he is holding onto something and if he lets go the train would stop. To put it a different way, how many drivers have been flung violently against the closed cab side door during the course of their routine duties, causing injury to them or the door? None, I suspect. I have never seen a driver appearing to cling onto objects in the cab for dear life, as the train is pulling into the station. It is a tube cab, not a space shuttle. Having a bit of a breeze on a hot day is more likely to enhance safety - if it keeps the driver alert and awake, and focused on the track ahead. Instead of feeling sleepy in a stuffy cab. Not to mention that having breathed in ever increasing amounts of CO2, the tiring effect of lack of oxygen, we are advised to open the cab door for fresh air. In spring or Autumn, personally, the cool breeze is an absolute godsend after the tunnels, I may drive west between East Acton-Ealing bdy or Hanger lane to Ruislip Gardens, and east generally from Woodford to Theydon Bois or inner rail from Hainault-Woodford both roads, the majority of that will be with the door open I'm afraid 🙄 |
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Post by drainrat on May 13, 2017 19:54:19 GMT
I agree with with this, just look at the generally abrasive strike inducing management style of LUL in general, evident from the Incident at London bridge, and from general postings on this board and the Guardian and Times newspapers. Those youngsters or kiddies are unsuitable as Managers, as they lack the soft skills necessary to run a proper team. Sorry for being so blunt about this, but the whole system needs reform, with Decent experienced management. There are many decent managers within LUL, but, unfortunately those inexperienced managers tarnish LUL's reputation for everyone, and should be shot! Regarding the London Bridge fare dodger incident, it should have been brought to a Court of Law to decide who is wrong, not an inept LUL manager. For this to end up as a dispute someone is inept, the police are obviously uninterested so nothing seriously wrong happened. Someone has made a decision and nobody is prepared to admit it was wrong, if the decision was correct the evidence would be on the table by now. In a world where people walk idly by any wrongdoing, the media screaming out how people do nothing to help, selfish behaviour, a society with no moral courage, we have someone who didn't stand idly by and was punished by termination of his employment. The company said he should've used the IPad he is issued with to either have taken notes or recorded the incident, that was the basis of their reasoning. |
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Post by drainrat on May 13, 2017 19:58:22 GMT
Nothing on the notice board about driving with the cab door open when I got in to work Monday, no email, nothing. Plenty of trains being driven with door open today because its sunny and warm. Nope, but the driver was supposedly handed a caution, not for having the door open but for not asking the LC permission to drive in CM, I'd like to say 'unbelievable' but it isn't 😒 |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 13, 2017 21:21:02 GMT
If a manager in LUL, after a few years of service, cannot identify or explain the reasoning behind a Benkler Joint, Axle Counter, or Track Section Interlocking, it does not bode well for a Manager. You've got me now... Why Benkler over a 666 or dry glued? And are we talking White Benkler, Green Benkler, or Brown Benkler? As a Signalling Principles Engineer with nearly 17 years experience, perhaps you might like to enlighten me as to what you mean by Track Section Interlocking? Though in all honesty, I'd rather managers knew how to motivate and lead staff, deal with HR, do P&Ds and left their staff to do their jobs rather than get involved for the sake of doing so. |
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North End
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Post by North End on May 13, 2017 21:51:22 GMT
Nothing on the notice board about driving with the cab door open when I got in to work Monday, no email, nothing. Plenty of trains being driven with door open today because its sunny and warm. Nope, but the driver was supposedly handed a caution, not for having the door open but for not asking the LC permission to drive in CM, I'd like to say 'unbelievable' but it isn't 😒 If true (one is aware of the risks of listening to the LU rumour mill!) then it is ridiculous. A good example of why employee relations inside LU is so toxic. It would have worked wonders for the company and in particular management to be seen sticking up for their member of staff for once. One presumes that in the interest of fairness, everyone else in coded manual that day will also be being pulled in? I'm sure the controllers will appreciate all the extra calls they will be getting! |
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North End
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Post by North End on May 13, 2017 22:02:17 GMT
I think you'll find those youngsters and kiddies are in their 40s. They're hardly fresh off the graduate scheme. Can you take your axe and grind it somewhere else? But there are a lot of youngsters and kiddies, maybe not where you are, but they are out there I'm afraid 😉 However, I'd say that's more of a nationwide corporate policy than just a TfL one, designed by think-tanks and all that Must admit I find the singling out of particular manager backgrounds tedious. Two of the most useless I have dealt with, one is a graduate who tried to pursue a SPAD on a repeater signal, the other is a long-serving through the grades type who could regularly be seen sitting on his train home from London to Letchworth spewing out all confidential business about his staff (grievances, disciplinaries and attendance) to a carriage full of people without even bothering to check who was within earshot. One wonders where the company gets some of their people from. In my experience it's more about the individual than their background, and I'm not convinced age has much to do with things either. Many young staff know just as much as old hands, and many old hands don't know as much as they think they do! One can hear just as much bull at train crew depots as at 55B! |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2017 7:03:27 GMT
You've clearly not spent any time on the Central Line, particularly in the Woodford area! Never been flung out of the seat, worst side play (recorded by WBV equpt) is over the points at Roding Valley jct west, but is short distance and certainly doesn't sling you out the seat, also, there is a speed restriction there which is more as a damage limitation to the points than because of a rough ride. Go back to the previous seats we had, and people were being thrown out of the drivers seat but we were also travelling at 102kph over rough track too, I dealt with many Leytonstone cases of driver injuries up u til the sped limiting of 85kph and the intro of the new seats 😉 I've not been flung out of my seat either but it is the only part of the line where I need to hold on and hug my water bottle before it topples on to the floor. The speed restriction over the junction westbound is useless in ATO as the block marker board is too far away from the junction so the first few carriages fly over at 85kph and the ATO knocks it down to about 75kph before the codes pick back up and it accelerates back up to line speed. If I'm driving in coded then I always slow down to 65kph before the junction. Before the tamping a few months ago, coming into Woodford eastbound was another area I had to "lock" myself into the seat. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 14, 2017 9:31:05 GMT
Nothing on the notice board about driving with the cab door open when I got in to work Monday, no email, nothing. Plenty of trains being driven with door open today because its sunny and warm. Nope, but the driver was supposedly handed a caution, not for having the door open but for not asking the LC permission to drive in CM, I'd like to say 'unbelievable' but it isn't 😒 Not that unbelievable, last year (or was it the year before) there were notices up saying that we had to go ATO at all times (expect on Sundays and Bank Holidays east of Leytonstone and west of White City) and that we needed permission from Wood Lane if we wanted to go Coded Manual for training, etc. But as you say, "supposedly", as many things are on the Tube, in all the jobs I've done between leaving school I've never worked at a place so bad for rumours and gossip. |
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Post by drainrat on May 14, 2017 15:41:28 GMT
Nope, but the driver was supposedly handed a caution, not for having the door open but for not asking the LC permission to drive in CM, I'd like to say 'unbelievable' but it isn't 😒 If true (one is aware of the risks of listening to the LU rumour mill!) then it is ridiculous. A good example of why employee relations inside LU is so toxic. It would have worked wonders for the company and in particular management to be seen sticking up for their member of staff for once. One presumes that in the interest of fairness, everyone else in coded manual that day will also be being pulled in? I'm sure the controllers will appreciate all the extra calls they will be getting! No chance and no chance drivers won't call them up and they won't pull in any drivers who have driven in CM |
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Post by drainrat on May 14, 2017 15:52:21 GMT
Nope, but the driver was supposedly handed a caution, not for having the door open but for not asking the LC permission to drive in CM, I'd like to say 'unbelievable' but it isn't 😒 Not that unbelievable, last year (or was it the year before) there were notices up saying that we had to go ATO at all times (expect on Sundays and Bank Holidays east of Leytonstone and west of White City) and that we needed permission from Wood Lane if we wanted to go Coded Manual for training, etc. But as you say, "supposedly", as many things are on the Tube, in all the jobs I've done between leaving school I've never worked at a place so bad for rumours and gossip. In my previous employment we had a following called ARRSE which was the rumour service of the army. Most soldiers can provide info as per whatever it was they saw, but people will generally spout whatever they want to believe, thus is the nature of humans. In the above case, the 'supposedly' was in the positive not the negative, the driver was advised to see more info, the corrective action plan (CAP) was denied as we've neve receivieved any info to the contrary, however, several of the H&S reps argued successfully that driving in ATO or CM was at the discretion of the driver, and that any call to the LC was purely courtesy and not permissory, I don't remember seeing any different. |
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Post by drainrat on May 14, 2017 15:56:24 GMT
Never been flung out of the seat, worst side play (recorded by WBV equpt) is over the points at Roding Valley jct west, but is short distance and certainly doesn't sling you out the seat, also, there is a speed restriction there which is more as a damage limitation to the points than because of a rough ride. Go back to the previous seats we had, and people were being thrown out of the drivers seat but we were also travelling at 102kph over rough track too, I dealt with many Leytonstone cases of driver injuries up u til the sped limiting of 85kph and the intro of the new seats 😉 I've not been flung out of my seat either but it is the only part of the line where I need to hold on and hug my water bottle before it topples on to the floor. The speed restriction over the junction westbound is useless in ATO as the block marker board is too far away from the junction so the first few carriages fly over at 85kph and the ATO knocks it down to about 75kph before the codes pick back up and it accelerates back up to line speed. If I'm driving in coded then I always slow down to 65kph before the junction. Before the tamping a few months ago, coming into Woodford eastbound was another area I had to "lock" myself into the seat. ATO is a funny old devil, ask a manager for a copy of the Hanger Lane FIR 😉 |
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Post by drainrat on May 14, 2017 16:06:38 GMT
But there are a lot of youngsters and kiddies, maybe not where you are, but they are out there I'm afraid 😉 However, I'd say that's more of a nationwide corporate policy than just a TfL one, designed by think-tanks and all that Must admit I find the singling out of particular manager backgrounds tedious. Two of the most useless I have dealt with, one is a graduate who tried to pursue a SPAD on a repeater signal, the other is a long-serving through the grades type who could regularly be seen sitting on his train home from London to Letchworth spewing out all confidential business about his staff (grievances, disciplinaries and attendance) to a carriage full of people without even bothering to check who was within earshot. One wonders where the company gets some of their people from. In my experience it's more about the individual than their background, and I'm not convinced age has much to do with things either. Many young staff know just as much as old hands, and many old hands don't know as much as they think they do! One can hear just as much bull at train crew depots as at 55B! In my advanced years, I've come to the conclusion that singling people out is all part and parcel of being a human. Stereotyping is a necessity in order to understand how to deal with different groups. We unconsciously judge, we feel hard done by when led by people the age of our children, it is human nature. We put it all in a liberal system of belief, tell people that's how they should also believe, then punish and belittle them if they don't believe the same, even if what we do ourselves is a form of bullying, we don't accept we bully, because we kid ourselves that we are acting 'ethically'. People are greedy, we like people who are like us, we want to acquire as much as we can at the least cost to us, no matter who we undermine and leave destitute. As tedious as we claim things to be, we only do that because we like to distance ourselves from our true nature 😉 |
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Post by drainrat on May 14, 2017 16:10:22 GMT
Nope, but the driver was supposedly handed a caution, not for having the door open but for not asking the LC permission to drive in CM, I'd like to say 'unbelievable' but it isn't 😒 If true (one is aware of the risks of listening to the LU rumour mill!) then it is ridiculous. A good example of why employee relations inside LU is so toxic. It would have worked wonders for the company and in particular management to be seen sticking up for their member of staff for once. One presumes that in the interest of fairness, everyone else in coded manual that day will also be being pulled in? I'm sure the controllers will appreciate all the extra calls they will be getting! But, like it or lump it, unfortunately, this is true 😔 |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on May 14, 2017 18:29:54 GMT
drainrat" said
"Two of the most useless I have dealt with, one is a graduate who tried to pursue a SPAD on a repeater signal, the other is a long-serving through the grades type who could regularly be seen sitting on his train home from London to Letchworth spewing out all confidential business about his staff (grievances, disciplinaries and attendance) to a carriage full of people without even bothering to check who was within earshot. One wonders where the company gets some of their people from. In my experience it's more about the individual than their background, ........."
You are right.
Some neighbours wanted to bury their suddenly deceased (= dead) pet rabbit. They have SO many degrees, I am embarrassed to be in their presence. But they phoned me up, asking "How to dig a hole in the ground". They told me that they had "bought a shovel". When I told them that they needed a garden fork to dig a hole, they couldn't grasp that as it hadn't rained for a month, they needed to soak the ground first.
I won't continue with this story, you can see where it is going, but innumerable Uni degrees don't give anyone automatic common sense. In the above example, too many degrees are obviously dangerous, as this guy and his wife, who both earn copious amounts of money based on their useless degrees, do not know how to dig a hole in the ground.
And when I ended the call by saying, "By the way, you'll need to bury him at least three feet down or the foxes will dig him up", I think they then decided to either "get a man in from yellow pages", or, choose some alternative means of deceased rabbit disposal
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Post by superteacher on May 14, 2017 19:38:11 GMT
Mod conment: We don't encourage "multiple posting" on this forum, where one member has two or more consecutive posts before anyone replies. If there is a long time gap then it's fine, but other than that we encourage members to combine their thoughts into one post. If you have just posted and want to add something, it's best to simply edit your previous post.
Thanks.
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Post by Chris M on May 14, 2017 20:21:57 GMT
In the above example, too many degrees are obviously dangerous, as this guy and his wife, who both earn copious amounts of money based on their useless degrees, do not know how to dig a hole in the ground. Your conclusions (that "too many degrees are dangerous" and that "their degrees are useless") is not supported by the evidence you have presented. For the first to be correct it would have to be the case that the multiple degrees was the cause of these people not know how to dig a hole in the ground. This is not necessarily the case. If they had grown up in an urban environment, worked in indoor jobs and until recently lived only properties without a garden then it is quite possible that they would not know how to dig a hole in the ground even if they did not have degrees. While it is true that you can lose knowledge if you don't use it (for example this is why train drivers' route knowledge expires even if the route has not changed), there are very many reasons other than having a degree why one might lose any prior knowledge about hole digging. It would also need to be proven that lack of knowledge about how to dig a hole was dangerous - something which is not illustrated by this anecdote. I would suggest that as they are earning "copious amounts of money" from their degrees that the degrees are not "useless". While these degrees seemingly did not include any assessment of knowledge about digging holes in gardens, this would only make them useless if their purpose was related to such activities. Degrees are very specialised learning, and their lack of included knowledge about vast areas of human activities is not an indicator of uselessness. Is a medical degree useless because it does not teach students how to design consumer electronics? Is an electrical engineering degree useless because it does not teach students how to safely operate a nuclear reactor? Is a nuclear physics degree useless because it does not teach students how to diagnose glaucoma? |
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