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Post by roman80 on Apr 5, 2017 21:17:36 GMT
Interesting re changing travel patterns and their reasons. Having used the westbound district line for twenty years of an evening, I note the following: from Central London (Westminster or Embankment) nine times out of ten one ends up standing until Parsons Green or Putney Bridge. Once upon a time Victoria saw a net exit of passengers, now its flat or an add. Also, other than people swapping to the Piccadilly, no one alights at South Kensington or Gloucester Road (commuters priced out of the area?) and many more people get on Wimbledon branch trains at Earls Court than get on. Meanwhile, circle line trains leaving Westminster are much more lightly loaded than in the past, especially outside the summer tourist season. Could you clarify what you mean about Wimbledon trains at Earl's Court. Sorry, meant many more get on at Earls Court to go towards Wimbledon than get off to change trains, lines or exit the station. Will correct original post.
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Post by 35b on Apr 6, 2017 9:38:12 GMT
Interesting re changing travel patterns and their reasons. Having used the westbound district line for twenty years of an evening, I note the following: from Central London (Westminster or Embankment) nine times out of ten one ends up standing until Parsons Green or Putney Bridge. Once upon a time Victoria saw a net exit of passengers, now its flat or an add. Also, other than people swapping to the Piccadilly, no one alights at South Kensington or Gloucester Road (commuters priced out of the area?) and many more people get on Wimbledon branch trains at Earls Court than get off to change trains, lines or exit the station. Meanwhile, circle line trains leaving Westminster are much more lightly loaded than in the past, especially outside the summer tourist season. Would the Circle loadings have anything to do with the break at Edgware Road?
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Post by Chris M on Apr 6, 2017 10:51:58 GMT
I don't think the break in the Circle line will have had much impact at Westminster as it's only going to be journeys to the north-central part (say Baker Street to Euston Square) that were significantly quicker via Edgware Road that are now not possible direct (journeys via Liverpool Street are unchanged of course). Far more significant will have been the opening of the Jubilee line, which will obviously have taken the Baker Street traffic, as well traffic for Waterloo and London Bridge that would previously have taken a circle line train and changed at Embankment or Monument. The Jubilee will have taken a proportion of Paddington traffic to as the easy interchange at Baker Street with the Bakerloo means that route is now quicker. Similarly I suspect many people heading to Euston and King's Cross will now take the Jubilee line and change at Green Park rather than go via the circle line (direct or changing to the Northern).
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 6, 2017 12:13:30 GMT
I don't think the break in the Circle line will have had much impact at Westminster as it's only going to be journeys to the north-central part (say Baker Street to Euston Square) that were significantly quicker via Edgware Road that are now not possible direct (journeys via Liverpool Street are unchanged of course). Far more significant will have been the opening of the Jubilee line, which will obviously have taken the Baker Street traffic, as well traffic for Waterloo and London Bridge that would previously have taken a circle line train and changed at Embankment or Monument. The Jubilee will have taken a proportion of Paddington traffic to as the easy interchange at Baker Street with the Bakerloo means that route is now quicker. Similarly I suspect many people heading to Euston and King's Cross will now take the Jubilee line and change at Green Park rather than go via the circle line (direct or changing to the Northern). the interchange at Green Park involves a long walk. More likely to change to the Victoria line at Victoria.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 14:37:19 GMT
I don't think the break in the Circle line will have had much impact at Westminster as it's only going to be journeys to the north-central part (say Baker Street to Euston Square) that were significantly quicker via Edgware Road that are now not possible direct (journeys via Liverpool Street are unchanged of course). Far more significant will have been the opening of the Jubilee line, which will obviously have taken the Baker Street traffic, as well traffic for Waterloo and London Bridge that would previously have taken a circle line train and changed at Embankment or Monument. The Jubilee will have taken a proportion of Paddington traffic to as the easy interchange at Baker Street with the Bakerloo means that route is now quicker. Similarly I suspect many people heading to Euston and King's Cross will now take the Jubilee line and change at Green Park rather than go via the circle line (direct or changing to the Northern). the interchange at Green Park involves a long walk. More likely to change to the Victoria line at Victoria. Or at Oxford Circus.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 6, 2017 15:53:08 GMT
For journeys to and from Westminster, Oxford Circus seems an unlikely station at which to change as a second change will always be required.
Even with the long walk at Green Park (which isn't to bad between the Jubilee and Victoria, it's Jubilee to Piccadilly - the one I do most frequently - that's the really long one) some people will still change there. Firstly the length of interchanges is not noted at all on the tube map, and secondly Green Park doesn't get as rammed as Victoria so it's easier to move through the station (although my experience at Victoria is limited).
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 6, 2017 16:01:18 GMT
For journeys to and from Westminster, Oxford Circus seems an unlikely station at which to change as a second change will always be required. Even with the long walk at Green Park (which isn't to bad between the Jubilee and Victoria, it's Jubilee to Piccadilly - the one I do most frequently - that's the really long one) some people will still change there. Firstly the length of interchanges is not noted at all on the tube map, and secondly Green Park doesn't get as rammed as Victoria so it's easier to move through the station (although my experience at Victoria is limited). I meant for Euston and King's Cross.
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Post by A60stock on Apr 6, 2017 17:02:57 GMT
does anyone know when bank or liverpool street stations (central line platforms) were refurbished to the condition they are in now?
and are there any places i can find pictures of the station when the refurbishment was taking place?
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Post by Chris M on Apr 6, 2017 17:44:15 GMT
For journeys to and from Westminster, Oxford Circus seems an unlikely station at which to change as a second change will always be required. Even with the long walk at Green Park (which isn't to bad between the Jubilee and Victoria, it's Jubilee to Piccadilly - the one I do most frequently - that's the really long one) some people will still change there. Firstly the length of interchanges is not noted at all on the tube map, and secondly Green Park doesn't get as rammed as Victoria so it's easier to move through the station (although my experience at Victoria is limited). I meant for Euston and King's Cross. From where? I certainly wouldn't change at Oxford Circus if travelling from Westminster to Euston or King's Cross (I'd change at Green Park). From Embankment (the other station mentioned by roman80) there is no need to change for Euston. I might change at Oxford Circus for King's Cross, but Leicester Square or Warren street are also possibilities (this is not a journey I think I've ever made though). For journeys to/from Embankment though I'm pretty certain the break in the circle line at Edgware Road will have had effectively no impact on routes taken: To Farringdon and points east it will likely have always been quicker to go via Liverpool Street, which hasn't changed with the uncircling. To Edgware Road and Paddington hasn't changed via the Circle or via the Bakerloo. From Embankment to Baker Street the Bakerloo line has always been quicker. I'd be surprised if anyone actually travels between Embankment and Euston Square as all destinations at the latter can be reached quicker from Euston, Warren Street or Goodge Street which can be reached directly via the Northern line. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if this is in the bottom 10 point to point journeys by tube in zone 1, maybe bottom 5 (Bank-Cannon Street, Euston-Euston Square, Warren Street-Great Portland Street, Regent's Park-Great Portland Street, Edgware Road-Edgware Road, Bayswater-Queensway, and Lancaster Gate-Paddington would be my other suggestions for this catgory.) That leaves just Great Portland Street, which will be quicker via Warren Street or Regent's Park for those in the know (and all regular travellers quickly will be!)
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Post by roman80 on Apr 6, 2017 18:03:13 GMT
For journeys to and from Westminster, Oxford Circus seems an unlikely station at which to change as a second change will always be required. Even with the long walk at Green Park (which isn't to bad between the Jubilee and Victoria, it's Jubilee to Piccadilly - the one I do most frequently - that's the really long one) some people will still change there. Firstly the length of interchanges is not noted at all on the tube map, and secondly Green Park doesn't get as rammed as Victoria so it's easier to move through the station (although my experience at Victoria is limited). Re the long walk from Jubilee to Piccadilly at Green Park, I know what you mean about its length. I tend to just go up the two escalators to the ticket hall level and down the long escalator to the Piccadilly. Maybe not quicker but more comfortable for me.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 6, 2017 18:34:43 GMT
@geofftech made a video about exactly that:
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 6, 2017 19:53:57 GMT
If you're going from Westminster to King's Cross or Euston it is quicker and easier to go via Victoria and the Victoria line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 6, 2017 20:58:28 GMT
If you're going from Westminster to King's Cross or Euston it is quicker and easier to go via Victoria and the Victoria line. Although my instinct would be to go via Embankment if going to Euston, as it is closer to a straight line. (Despite what the Tube map suggests,Westminster to Embankment is almost due north, not East)
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Post by snoggle on Apr 6, 2017 23:14:05 GMT
I sometimes wonder if there are members of this site who only ever use the busiest sections of the underground in the rush hour. I would say that, despite some rush hour travel, the vast majority of my underground use is on trains that are not fully loaded* - i.e. they have free seats, often plenty of free seats. From my personal experience, a lot of the journeys I make now have the same loading density as those I used to make as a very young child in the 50's. * I realise that this is not the official definition of 'fully loaded', as trains are designed and intended to accommodate standing passengers My tube usage is way down on what it was a few years ago but that means I tend to notice changes more starkly when I *do* travel. The Victoria Line is my local line and usage off peak is vastly up on what it was a few years ago. Obviously part of that is driven by the very high frequency service we see every day. Even so trains are now full (seats taken) by Finsbury Park (going south) and standing room from there on into town. A few weeks I got a n/b train around 2200 at Kings Cross and only got a seat after Seven Sisters. The last few trains I could understand being full but I've never seen it that busy at only 2200 (but then it's not a time of day I usually frequent the tube!). My limited use of other services would tend to support the "busier than it used to be" argument with the Jubilee Line to and from Stratford being busy all the time now. I used the Northern Line out of Morden on a Saturday a couple of months back - people were struggling to find seats by Tooting Broadway and it was standing room only from Balham. That was a surprise. The tell tale factor in all this is when you upgrade a line and boost frequency it seems to unleash the floodgates although obviously there are exogenous factors like population growth, economic activity and new shopping developments like Westfield which are all factors.
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Post by North End on Apr 6, 2017 23:34:48 GMT
I sometimes wonder if there are members of this site who only ever use the busiest sections of the underground in the rush hour. I would say that, despite some rush hour travel, the vast majority of my underground use is on trains that are not fully loaded* - i.e. they have free seats, often plenty of free seats. From my personal experience, a lot of the journeys I make now have the same loading density as those I used to make as a very young child in the 50's. * I realise that this is not the official definition of 'fully loaded', as trains are designed and intended to accommodate standing passengers My tube usage is way down on what it was a few years ago but that means I tend to notice changes more starkly when I *do* travel. The Victoria Line is my local line and usage off peak is vastly up on what it was a few years ago. Obviously part of that is driven by the very high frequency service we see every day. Even so trains are now full (seats taken) by Finsbury Park (going south) and standing room from there on into town. A few weeks I got a n/b train around 2200 at Kings Cross and only got a seat after Seven Sisters. The last few trains I could understand being full but I've never seen it that busy at only 2200 (but then it's not a time of day I usually frequent the tube!). My limited use of other services would tend to support the "busier than it used to be" argument with the Jubilee Line to and from Stratford being busy all the time now. I used the Northern Line out of Morden on a Saturday a couple of months back - people were struggling to find seats by Tooting Broadway and it was standing room only from Balham. That was a surprise. The tell tale factor in all this is when you upgrade a line and boost frequency it seems to unleash the floodgates although obviously there are exogenous factors like population growth, economic activity and new shopping developments like Westfield which are all factors. I'm not sure I agree with the connection between line upgrades and extra journeys. Simply because I can't see how the difference between, say, a 4-minute service and a 3-minute one would have that much influence on decisions. Sure if you replace an hourly service with a half-hourly one it's bound to attract people, but once into turn up and go frequencies I just don't see it matters that much. I agree with the Vic Line observation, and likewise the Jubilee. However I'd say the Northern has escaped the "always crowded" situation many other lines find themselves in. Especially the northern branches. The trains are by no means empty, but it's still possible to experience a relatively peaceful and civilised journey most of the time. One wonders if this partly down to the Northern Line tending to serve nicer more affluent areas, where a greater proportion of local journeys happen by car. Even the Charing Cross branch can be quiet on a werkend compared with other lines.
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Post by londonstuff on Apr 7, 2017 5:18:38 GMT
@geofftech made a video about exactly that: Thanks for this Chris. I'm not really sure that I get the inherent point of the video though: "I made an internet rumour about something that's false and then make a video to prove or disprove it." Am I missing something or does that sound a bit like something Trumpesque?
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 7, 2017 5:49:54 GMT
Having worked all night at Green Park, I walked the low level interchange between Jubilee and Victoria. It is a long way. Even the up and over route is significant.
I can confirm it's a very long way up the Piccadilly escalator when it's switched off.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 7, 2017 9:44:46 GMT
I'm not sure I agree with the connection between line upgrades and extra journeys. Simply because I can't see how the difference between, say, a 4-minute service and a 3-minute one would have that much influence on decisions. Sure if you replace an hourly service with a half-hourly one it's bound to attract people, but once into turn up and go frequencies I just don't see it matters that much. I agree with the Vic Line observation, and likewise the Jubilee. However I'd say the Northern has escaped the "always crowded" situation many other lines find themselves in. Especially the northern branches. The trains are by no means empty, but it's still possible to experience a relatively peaceful and civilised journey most of the time. One wonders if this partly down to the Northern Line tending to serve nicer more affluent areas, where a greater proportion of local journeys happen by car. Even the Charing Cross branch can be quiet on a werkend compared with other lines. There is a great deal of evidence from various modes - bus, tube, main line rail - that improved frequency drives patronage growth. Higher capacity also helps. I understand your point about what might be deemed marginal improvement but at the north end of the Vic Line we've effectively seen our off peak frequency doubled (train every 2 mins rather than 4-5) *and* the journey times are faster. That will definitely drive demand and, I think, has caused some level of transfer from the Picc to the Vic but that's just my random, non evidence based, view based on what looks to be much higher numbers of people boarding and alighting the Vic Line at Finsbury Park. I didn't comment on the north end of the Northern Line branches. You are probably right that the demographic is more car based and there are fewer interchange options to other rail services. It's probably true on the Stanmore end of the Jubilee too. However north end of the Vic and east end of the Jubilee with more densely built suburbs and many more interchanges to other rail and bus services have seen much more growth. I am still surprised at how much local traffic there now is on the Highbury - WW Central section of the Vic. 20 years ago you'd struggle to see anyone waiting at n/b platforms from S Sisters to Blackhorse Road or making 1-2 stop trips southbound. Not now. And grappling gamely to get back on topic (!) this must be placing some extra strain on station assets and altering the business case / asset renewal needs for those stations. We could certainly do with more escalators and wider corridors and platforms at some Vic Line stations but we'll be waiting a long time I fear. The upside is that more passengers means a higher potential volume of passenger benefits which will aid any future business case.
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