Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 27, 2019 18:36:18 GMT
The DLR also has lots of options for turning trains short or diverting them to other destinations if required. In short it has the exact thing that is being systematically removed from the Underground: flexibility.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 27, 2019 18:40:13 GMT
Indeed. The signallers (or VCC operators to pedantic) would obviously need to manage that. Small point on terminology, the Signallers operate the SMC, not the VCC. A VCC Operator is a specifically trained member of technical staff, usually the Control Room Technical Officer. Regarding the claims about service recovery, a few weeks go we had overrunning works at Hammersmith with a 7 minute delay. Things were back on schedule pretty quickly without much intervention.
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Post by North End on Apr 27, 2019 18:45:34 GMT
What I'm referring to is the abliity to push a train along the line a little bit quicker if its falling behind time. It doesn't really do that either. The only difference will be that the train won't be held to booked departure time (just will experience default minimum dwell times), and won't run slowly to prevent early arrival at the next station. Apart from that it will run at exactly the same speed and with exactly the same brake rates as any other train. There is no ability to speed up a train. It's worth a gentle reminder that on the Jubilee and Northern trains run flat out most of the time just to achieve the schedule, if anything SSR will see more of this as I'd place a wager that SSR runs late for a greater proportion of the time! The 10% figure is completely meaningless (not sure where that’s come from?) I can't recall where I saw it, but I have absolutely seen or heard it somewhere. There's quite a few vague ideas that float around. One of them on JNUP was that a PM train can only achieve 90% of the performance of an ATO train, which was similarly baseless. I seem to remember there was guidance given to JNUP signallers during training (and before real-life experience) that the system would generally recover 10 minutes of late running without intervention, this could perhaps be where the 10 figure comes from. Unfortunately this might have been true on the simulator, reality simply doesn't bear this out - hence why nowadays it's not uncommon to see Edgware trains being reversed at Colindale when just 5 minutes late, or trains doing run rounds or reforms at Golders Green simply for being an out-of-turn "pair". Indeed. The signallers (or VCC operators to pedantic) would obviously need to manage that. The VCC operator is NOT the same as the signaller. The VCC operator is effectively the room technical officer, who sits at a dedicated workstation and monitors the VCCs. He may be asked to carry out particular tasks by the signaller (for example confirm points have been correctly reserved), but does not have a direct role in signalling the movement of trains. Even under Seltrac junctions can be worked in no out of turn or First come first serve modes. DLR uses first come first serve at all its junctions except the Tower Gateway/Bank junction which is usually always in no out of turn. I bet I know the reason why DLR opts to work that way! I mentioned there's pitfalls associated with various junction modes, and one of those pitfalls is that if the signaller's back is turned for whatever reason he may well find a right mess upon returning... Much the same as now with programme machines then. Glad to see nothing changes! Indeed. State-of-the-art world-class technology at its best. It's good to see things have moved forwards so much in over half a century! One thing I have become aware of since becoming an I/O is the poor recovery times at terminus's on deep tube lines. On the SSR we have the luxury of a minimum of 8 minutes; 10 or 12 minutes is very much the norm. In the peaks we get 17 minutes at Richmond! From what I gather, 5 or 6 minutes is very normal on deep tube lines. That cannot do you any favours when trying to deal with late running or train's running out of turn. Something for the SSR to look forward to in the future perhaps. Another weakpoint on the Tube lines is generally fewer platforms at termini, there simply isn't the luxury of four platforms seen at places like Richmond and Wimbledon. This is why the system really needs to make the best use of the infrastructure, and why it's not impressive to wait outside the station seemingly waiting for a vacant platform, then to find a train passes and one arrives to find three empty platforms, and get routed into the left-hand most available platform as well. This is very commonplace at somewhere like High Barnet, Edgware or Stanmore. At Edgware there's also a curious software bug that means if the platform working has gone off WTT then trains leaving platform 2 will find themselves taking the "long" route, which also needlessly blocks entry for anything trying to arrive at the same time. Once again, an example of a situation where signaller intervention is necessary to stop the system doing something daft. It's also worth a gentle reminder that the system as-is very much struggles to achieve right-time arrivals at many of the JNUP termini. High Barnet and Edgware for sure, and I suspect Stanmore too. 6 minutes on paper is very often 3 mins 55 seconds in reality, which is why the signaller needs every single means at his disposal to help make decisions, right down to using CCTV and in some cases adopting gentle tricks like waiting for the driver to be seen approaching the cab and throw the points at that moment in an effort to influence any decision whether to visit the messroom!
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 27, 2019 18:49:02 GMT
The VCC operator is NOT the same as the signaller. The VCC operator is effectively the room technical officer, who sits at a dedicated workstation and monitors the VCCs. He may be asked to carry out particular tasks by the signaller (for example confirm points have been correctly reserved), but does not have a direct role in signalling the movement of trains. Or she, or they. There is absolutely no need to be using gendered pronouns to refer to any role on the Underground.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 19:29:29 GMT
No control room technical officer now they are called signalling systems manager
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Post by Chris L on Apr 27, 2019 19:43:38 GMT
I understood the track work to make the bay road at Tower Hill bi directional is already there but awaits the signalling.
There is also the intention to re-instate the 4th platform at South Kensington to increase flexibility.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 19:59:59 GMT
The track at Tower Hill is all connected just not commissioned
South Ken old E/B platform will replace the E/B island platform
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 27, 2019 20:56:02 GMT
AIUI the works at South Kensington have nothing to do with flexibility or even reliability of the train service, it's all about expanding passenger capacity and improving passenger flows around the station. This may improve dwell times slightly (with more space those alighting can move away from the train quicker and impede those boarding less) but that's a bonus.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 28, 2019 11:16:30 GMT
I was also led to believe that the works at South Ken were liked to escalators being added to link to the Piccadilly line?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 28, 2019 11:34:11 GMT
The works at South Ken are essentially congestion relief works; the plan is to have system similar to Stratford WB Central line or Barking EB where doors open on both sides of the train. The old EB platform will not replace the current one.
Likewise, the work at Tower Hill is to enable the middle platform to reverse trains from both directions; the current WB platform will remain as such post-CBTC introduction.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 28, 2019 12:26:16 GMT
The works at South Ken are essentially congestion relief works; the plan is to have system similar to Stratford WB Central line or Barking EB where doors open on both sides of the train. The old EB platform will not replace the current one. That sounds good, although (with the Goblin extension in mind) I was wondering about the long-term future of the platform on the left at Barking. (Returning to Sth Ken), I suppose that by having doors open on both sides it will mean that there will not be a need for a new direct link to the Piccadilly line? Will the reopened platform be 'accessible'?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 28, 2019 12:42:07 GMT
There will be passive provision for lifts to both SRR platforms at South Kensington. Lifts will not be provided until after/as part of (I'm not sure which) a second phase of works enables step-free access to the ticket hall, but this requires TfL to take over and completely remodel one of the buildings on the north side of the ticket hall.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 28, 2019 14:35:16 GMT
I was also led to believe that the works at South Ken were liked to escalators being added to link to the Piccadilly line? The existing escalator shaft cuts through the trackbed and platform of the original westbound District line - the island now in use was the original eastbound District and westbound Met/Circle (now respectively westbound and eastbound).
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Post by t697 on Apr 28, 2019 18:36:24 GMT
Current scope at South Ken for SSR provides a new platform (numbered 5, at least for now) the other side of the existing EB track. There will be a physical platform both sides of that track but the existing platform 2 will be barriered off at the platform edge and the train doors will only open on to the new platform. The island platform will then only serve the WB track, as platform 1. The new lift to that platform will meet the platform in the vicinity of the last car of an EB train, so unless Selective Door Opening (SDO) was invoked, it wouldn't be practicable to retain door opening both sides of EB trains. And because of the way S stock SDO is configured, you'd have to have the same SDO doors not opening both sides of the train which would be a waste of part of the new platform and a bad constraint on trains and passengers at South Ken EB, thus negating some or all of the project benefit.
I know there are those with other views, so I'll just take cover now!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 28, 2019 20:22:41 GMT
Thanks for that t697 - sounds like things have changed since I last spoke to someone involved in the project!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 28, 2019 20:40:23 GMT
Thanks for that t697 - sounds like things have changed since I last spoke to someone involved in the project! Indeed! The last briefing to drivers did advocate a trial of opening both side doors eastbound while the Piccadilly Line escalators were refurbished.
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Post by londonstuff on Apr 28, 2019 21:44:44 GMT
So barriered off on the platform like at Baker St?
How long is it likely to take to get that side of the building and tracks ready. Points, tracks, electric, lift(?), refurb of the building, corridors, platform, etc.?
(Is the object which looks like a scarecrow still on that platform?)
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Post by t697 on Apr 28, 2019 22:21:27 GMT
There are a number of reasons why a "trial" could be difficult, which I'm sure are obvious to Operators, Engineers and those paying for temporary ATC settings... ATC will have been commissioned here by the time the new platform is ready.
I don't know what the permanent platform edge barrier would look like. I'd have thought the ones at the north end of Baker St 2 and 3 wouldn't be thought in keeping with the Heritage nature of South Ken but then the neat one at Putney Bridge 3 might be thought too puny to discourage foolhardy actions. Somewhere in between perhaps?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 29, 2019 7:22:17 GMT
Not sure how wide the new eastbound will be at South Ken, but there are always fewer people waiting to go east because nearly everyone will be able to take the first train - Westbound there are four possible destinations.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 29, 2019 7:30:44 GMT
Another weakpoint on the Tube lines is generally fewer platforms at termini, there simply isn't the luxury of four platforms seen at places like Richmond and Wimbledon. The District Line only has the use of three of the five terminal platforms at Richmond - the other two are used by the Overground. At Wimbledon, in general, two platforms are used by City trains and the other two by Edgware Road services.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Apr 29, 2019 8:38:54 GMT
Not sure how wide the new eastbound will be at South Ken, but there are always fewer people waiting to go east because nearly everyone will be able to take the first train - Westbound there are four possible destinations. The congestion issue at South Kensington isn't so much about people leaving station on trains but arriving on them. The nearby museum's attract a lot of traffic, particularly during school holiday periods and the main set of stairs between the ticket hall and District/Circle platform becomes a bottle neck. The District & Circle platform rarely has a chance to clear before the next train arrives and dumps more people on the platform which then want to exit the station. We have been known to non stop the station in order to allow the congestion to clear. The District Line only has the use of three of the five terminal platforms at Richmond - the other two are used by the Overground. At Wimbledon, in general, two platforms are used by City trains and the other two by Edgware Road services. We can use four out of five platforms at Richmond. Platform 3 has no negative rail so it is out of bounds to us but platforms 4 to 7 are quite valid. We only usually use platforms 6 & 7 during off peak periods and 5 during the peaks, but platform 4 is available to us if needs be. At Wimbledon, there's no particular allocation of platforms 1 to 4. The general service pattern is City and Edgware Road services alternating but there are periods when you may see three timetabled City bound trains in a row or a short High Street Kensington terminator inbetween two Edgware Road's.
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Post by ijmad on May 1, 2019 18:04:25 GMT
Thanks all for the fantastic detail about the new signalling system.
I suppose an interesting point here is that once ATO is 'in', there may be scope for adding new capabilities with software upgrades in the control centre over the coming years Certainly a brave new world!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 8, 2019 3:19:41 GMT
They have perhaps learned from TBTC as the training for CBTC uses the terms halted, communicating, active and passive. Does this imply trains are always in communication with the system, even if inside an unsignalled depot? With the looped based system they lose communication as soon as the train goes off the inductive cable, which in reality is Morden, Edgware, Highgate, Golders Green, Neasden or Stratford Market depots (or during a loop failure). That is known as a non communicating train. On S stock, on the Signalling Interface Display we either see the VOBC’s as halted (so 1 or 2 or 1 & 2 not displayed to us at all in which case we use the VOBC reset button) or communicating (so the 1 & 2 indications are halo’d). They are then either active or passive with active one driving the train though we have no indication to say which is which (unless of course the train comes up in a heap and the 1 or 2 indication is missing in which case you could probably deduce which one was active at the time. <<superteacher: Post edited to include quote from other thread.>>
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North End
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Post by North End on May 8, 2019 14:36:38 GMT
That is known as a non communicating train. On S stock, on the Signalling Interface Display we either see the VOBC’s as halted (so 1 or 2 or 1 & 2 not displayed to us at all in which case we use the VOBC reset button) or communicating (so the 1 & 2 indications are halo’d). They are then either active or passive with active one driving the train though we have no indication to say which is which (unless of course the train comes up in a heap and the 1 or 2 indication is missing in which case you could probably deduce which one was active at the time. I've been having a browse through some SSR ATC documentation, and this doesn't match up with what I'm reading. The material I'm reading suggests no VOBC displayed indicates halted state. One or more VOBCs displayed but not halo'd indicates dormant, or in TBTC terminology "ready". This is the state I'd expect the VOBCs to be in when the train operator reacts to the "Check VOBC" sign on the approach to the CBTC area. Then when they become halo'd this indicates they're communicating, with one VOBC being active and the other passive although the system doesn't indicate to the train operator which is which. The CBTC rule book appendix also refers to the "ready" (dormant in service control terminology) state. This also ties in with how it is on JNUP, the only difference being the method of communication, cables versus radio.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 8, 2019 17:05:22 GMT
I've been having a browse through some SSR ATC documentation, and this doesn't match up with what I'm reading. With respect, please explain how what I stated does not match! The material I'm reading suggests no VOBC displayed indicates halted state. Well yes, I did actually say that! One or more VOBCs displayed but not halo'd indicates dormant, or in TBTC terminology "ready". This is the state I'd expect the VOBCs to be in when the train operator reacts to the "Check VOBC" sign on the approach to the CBTC area. Indeed. To be fair I thought we were disccusing wholly within the CBTC railway. In any case this thread is supposed to be discussing voltages so I didn't feel the need to fully explain the entry sequence from the tripcock railway to the CBTC railway. Then when they become halo'd this indicates they're communicating, with one VOBC being active and the other passive although the system doesn't indicate to the train operator which is which. I did also state that halo'd means they're communicating and that in this state one is active and one is passive with no indication of which is performing each role. So again I fail to see how what I said "dosen't match"!
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North End
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Post by North End on May 8, 2019 17:14:56 GMT
I've been having a browse through some SSR ATC documentation, and this doesn't match up with what I'm reading. With respect, please explain how what I stated does not match! Likewise with TBTC the trains training refers to VOBCs as halted, ready and communicating, yet more technical staff (including service control) refer to halted, dormant, passive and active. They have perhaps learned from TBTC as the training for CBTC uses the terms halted, communicating, active and passive. What I'm reading suggests halted, ready (dormant), communicating (active or passive). There's a slight difference.
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 11, 2019 11:51:29 GMT
I saw some new tags installed the other day, but on orange brackets/mounts and mounted under the negi rail. I will take a picture if I remember Those are for location references for ATMS fitted trains, the Automatic Track Measurement System on a few passenger trains per line. The now cancelled AIT train was also going to use them and maybe the older Track Recording Train is using them now? Completely separate set of tags to the SSR resignalling, but of course different projects started at different times. 20:20 hindsight might suggest it's a little daft! finally a picture of one of these: maximum distance between 75mtr but must have 3 in 100mtr yellow is simply the base plate attached to sleeper, black is the transponder tag. They no longer look like that That version in the picture is the 10 year battery type The 20 year battery version which should of replaced all of the 10 year ones look slightly different but do exactly the same job finally found one to photograph that was recently installed:
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 12:08:25 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 12, 2019 13:01:18 GMT
CBTC testing in SMA3 this weekend is seeing trains using platform 2 at Tower Hill from both directions and movements. Also Farringdon-King’s Cross, which under conventional tripcock signalling is maximum 40mph, running at 52mph under CBTC.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 14:47:28 GMT
Has there been any revised timeline on rollout of the other migration areas yet?
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