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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 16:43:26 GMT
The Waterloo and City trains could be coupled up in the middle section of the Central lines Trains, in a similar fashion to when the Victora Line Trains had Ex-Northern line 1972 trains inserted into them back in the late Eighties. Perhaps someone in the know could enlighten me in this respect...
Central Line Train format could be this= 92dm-92ndm-WCNDM-WCDM-WCDM-WCNDM-92ndm-92dm. in order to form an additional symmetrical Central line train.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 27, 2016 17:31:53 GMT
I spotted some interesting comments by the Mayor to the London assembly including some indicative dates to replace the Piccadilly line stock, which presumably will be equipped with NTFL? Among several interesting observations was confirmation that there would be two tenders issued for the Piccadilly line one to cover the rolling stock and a second for the signalling. The mayor indicated that the tenders would be issued in 2017, and orders placed in 2019, with new signalling being installed in 2021 and new rolling stock deliveries "from" 2023. I did not notice the Mayor actually refer to NTFL (whether this is intentional is not clear?). One clear implication is the new signalling will be installed first, whilst the existing rolling stock is still in service. Does this imply the old fleet will need to be retrofitted? If so it will presumably mean a period when even less units are available for service on a line which is hard pressed to handle peak demand. If not, does it mean the new signalling system will remain dormant until all the new NTFL units arrive - allowing a big bang switch-over, and avoiding the need to modify the existing rolling stock. That may explain the mayor use of the phrase Deliveries rather than introduction into service. If they are planning a big bang solution I wonder how they intend to mitigate any teething trouble risks. Another intriguing factor is the complexities of joint running with S stock on part of the route which may rule out a proven off the shelf signalling solution. Given past procurement problems with SSR signalling I fear the proposed signalling system delivery date may prove optimistic especially if they are aiming for a solution which can eventually be enhanced to allow autonomous operation at some stage in the future. Raking back through some old TfL Panel meeting papers it seems Contract Award for the new Picc rolling stock is scheduled for July 2017. This may change given we have not had an update on future project approvals for over 6 months (so much for transparency from the new Mayor!!). A development contract award for the signalling is due around the same time. I assume LU will adopt the role of system integrator or else procure specialised expertise for this from the market place. It will also be interesting to see if a "Programme Partner" as adopted for the SSR programme will be deemed necessary or not and what influence IIPAG ("independent" programm advisory group) will have. My reading of what you've set out is that LU is trying to emulate the basic programme concept from the Vic Line. As ASLEF Shrugged has said this means the 73s are progressively removed and the new PL tube stock runs under existing signalling. Work will then proceed to overlay the new signalling and I imagine the new rolling stock will be designed so that whatever interface is required can be installed relatively easily. I think LU is deliberately trying to avoid "big bangs" with signalling because of the risk of reputational damage and mass inconvenience to passengers. The counterbalance to that is the need to try to achieve benefits quickly. It will be interesting to see what particular phasing is adopted on the Picc Line and how the particular complex areas are handled. And thank goodness that stupid "New Tube for London" has apparently been consigned to the dustbin. A load of egotistical nonsense so characteristic of the ancien régime at City Hall.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 27, 2016 21:17:56 GMT
Central Line Train format could be this= 92dm-92ndm-WCNDM-WCDM-WCDM-WCNDM-92ndm-92dm. in order to form an additional symmetrical Central line train. There is no need for Central Line trains to be symmetrical, and your suggested formation would have four DMs, and thus two redundant cabs. I have never seen more than three AB units in one train. I suspect some rewiring would be needed for the W&C units to be formed even In the middle of a Central Line train now. Do even the couplings at the driving ends work? (They have never been used in their 24 year careers!)
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 27, 2016 21:36:13 GMT
I idea if the couplers still work but I think it will be vastly more work than fitting in the 72s into the vic line trains.....
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Post by John Tuthill on Dec 28, 2016 9:06:21 GMT
Central Line Train format could be this= 92dm-92ndm-WCNDM-WCDM-WCDM-WCNDM-92ndm-92dm. in order to form an additional symmetrical Central line train. There is no need for Central Line trains to be symmetrical, and your suggested formation would have four DMs, and thus two redundant cabs. I have never seen more than three AB units in one train. I suspect some rewiring would be needed for the W&C units to be formed even In the middle of a Central Line train now. Do even the couplings at the driving ends work? (They have never been used in their 24 year careers!) Considering that the W&C rolling stock has to be lifted and then transported on a low loader, is there any commercial justification for considering this 'option'?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 28, 2016 9:29:46 GMT
Considering that the W&C rolling stock has to be lifted and then transported on a low loader, is there any commercial justification for considering this 'option'? Possibly, if the W&C is to be the first with the new trains as planned, once they have been winched out the Central might have a use for them, perhaps as cover for units out of action e.g for life extension, repair or written off, or maybe to improve frequencies.
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Post by stapler on Dec 28, 2016 9:40:32 GMT
If Central Line trains have more cabs in the middle, then loading problems and delays will occur at many stations!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 28, 2016 10:14:00 GMT
Would the W&C trains be suitable for the Isle of Wight? On the face of it a small fleet of manually driven tube-sized trains with cab doors would seem to be just what the Island needs.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 28, 2016 11:24:53 GMT
If Central Line trains have more cabs in the middle, then loading problems and delays will occur at many stations! Which is probably why, along with the laws of probability*, you never see a Central Line train with more than one cab in the middle. I would expect if they ever did run a train with four DM-UNDM units, it would be best to ensure the middle cabs were not coupled together, so that there was always a passenger door close to where the passengers expect to find one. (e.g DM-UNDM-DM-UNDM-DM-UNDM-UNDM-DM) *Even one centre cab is quite rare. There are 340 units on the Central, enough to make 85 trains, requiring 170 cabs. There are 175 units with cabs, and 165 without. So if all units are in service, five of the 85 trains will have a third (middle) cab, or 1/17.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 28, 2016 12:04:41 GMT
I would expect if they ever did run a train with four DM-UNDM units, it would be best to ensure the middle cabs were not coupled together, so that there was always a passenger door close to where the passengers expect to find one. (e.g DM-UNDM-DM-UNDM-DM-UNDM-UNDM-DM) I would have thought you could run any train DM-XDM-XDM-XDM-XDM-XDM-DM and the passengers would know where to find the doors: i.e. Not where there is an internal cab door.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 28, 2016 14:23:01 GMT
I would expect if they ever did run a train with four DM-UNDM units, it would be best to ensure the middle cabs were not coupled together, so that there was always a passenger door close to where the passengers expect to find one. I would have thought ................... the passengers would know where to find the doors: i.e. Not where there is an internal cab door. I was thinking of passengers on the platform, trying to get on.
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Post by stapler on Dec 28, 2016 15:01:23 GMT
So was I. Chaos would result as people desperately funnelled themselves into nearby doors, especially at Bank, with its enormous gaps. And at Stratford!
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 28, 2016 17:11:15 GMT
I would have thought ................... the passengers would know where to find the doors: i.e. Not where there is an internal cab door. I was thinking of passengers on the platform, trying to get on. Good point!
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