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Post by A60stock on Nov 30, 2016 23:24:43 GMT
After having a read of tfls upgrade plans for the future, something didn't seem so clear to me.
I am aware the ntlf will replace the piccadilly line 73 stock first, but which is next, is it the 72 stock or the 92 stock? Common sense would say the 72 stock but is this certain to be the correct order? On the other hand, I could see why the 92 stock may go first.
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Post by The Tram Man on Dec 1, 2016 12:47:34 GMT
Without any real insight, i would guess that the 72 stock will go before the 92 stock does. But why will the 92 stock be replaced at this this "early" if you'll forgive a stupid question?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 1, 2016 14:22:00 GMT
. But why will the 92 stock be replaced at this this "early" I understand they have been problematic for years - basically a good design but badly built (as opposed to the 1983 stock which had some poor design features but was screwed together well). The 1992s have had a number of problems, such as traction motors falling off, and the need for quantities of Duck Tape to stop the cab fronts falling apart.
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Post by crusty54 on Dec 1, 2016 16:03:11 GMT
. But why will the 92 stock be replaced at this this "early" I understand they have been problematic for years - basically a good design but badly built (as opposed to the 1983 stock which had some poor design features but was screwed together well). The 1992s have had a number of problems, such as traction motors falling off, and the need for quantities of Duck Tape to stop the cab fronts falling apart. As things stand 1992 stock will go first. They were the first trains on the Underground built to the supplier's design and used bogies from Japan, externally hung doors etc. Money is being spent to extend the life of 1972 stock.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 1, 2016 17:59:09 GMT
Its not the change of rolling stock, as I see that as being necessary, its the change of signalling system, inevitable "much disruption" and potentially subsequent less good (and slower) service which worries me.
Maybe though things will be more like the Victoria Line and not as severe as feared.
I would hope that if the signalling system is replaced we get the same as the Victoria Line, as I understand that this performs better than that which is used on some other LU lines.
As for the 1972 TS, wow, trains that were new when I was a schoolboy might still be in daily service when I am a septuagenarian!
Simon
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Post by stapler on Dec 1, 2016 18:05:02 GMT
Well, the A stock appeared whilst I was at junior school and didn't disappear till I had my senior railcard!
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Post by metman on Dec 1, 2016 18:55:29 GMT
A stock and 72 stock are both good trains so I'm not surprised the 72 stock may make nearly 60 years old!
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Post by A60stock on Dec 1, 2016 19:06:21 GMT
thanks for the replies.
Do we know in what year the replacement for the 92s and 72s will roughly start?
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Post by trash80 on Dec 1, 2016 19:55:14 GMT
It seems to change a bit but i read somewhere the W&C 92s would be replaced first in the early 2020s as this would help test the new design too. The 72s are down for the end of the 2020s before replacement starts so i guess they will see 2030 at least!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 20:08:27 GMT
This was the plan in 2013 (going by the URL) and I'm not aware of it having changed since. TL;DR Waterloo & City's 1992s go second, but the 1972s are in third place, before the Central's 1992s. Despite this, Piccadilly goes 'driverless' last. I mean, I don't hold out much hope when it comes to automation, I think the writing's on the wall for all of us, but all the same, exactly when the deep tubes go DTO is not completely set in stone.
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Post by br7mt on Dec 1, 2016 20:22:35 GMT
Last I heard was W&C then Piccadilly, however it was unclear whether Bakerloo or Central would be next. Both 72TS and 92TS are having major work done so I suspect there is no immediate concern as to which comes first. Maintainability of the signalling system equipment may be the defining factor.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by stapler on Dec 1, 2016 23:01:50 GMT
Will the W&C 92s be used to supplement the Central 92s, or are they so different electronically it wouldn't be worth it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 23:07:26 GMT
It seems very unlikely
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 1, 2016 23:08:19 GMT
Good question! There have been a huge number of mods so they may be used as spare parts - bogies - doors and seats but the electronics perhaps are a step too far?
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Post by A60stock on Dec 1, 2016 23:50:51 GMT
Hold on, if the W and C trains are to go first, then i can completely understand them being replaced in order to be used as a testbed for the ntfl
However, if the piccadily line trains go first, then why on earth are the 92s on the drain being replaced before both the 92s and the 72s, if the ntfl works on the picc, then why not replace stock that is more urgently needed to go first, i.e the 72s and then the 92s, followed by the W and C trains. I cant really see the point of replacing the W & C before the other two lines unless its the very first stock to be replaced (before the picc), the ntfl will hardly be a difference on the W and C in comparison to the other lines so why not either make this the very first stock to go or the very last.
In Addition, what about the jubilee and northern lines, (and possibly victoria), the stock on those lines are not much newer than the 92 stock on the central so would these receive the ntfl after the other lines have been replaced?
Sure someone of far superior knowledge to mine will the answer to these but just was curious
Thanks,
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 0:05:11 GMT
Hold on, if the W and C trains are to go first, then i can completely understand them being replaced in order to be used as a testbed for the ntfl However, if the piccadily line trains go first, then why on earth are the 92s on the drain being replaced before both the 92s and the 72s, if the ntfl works on the picc, then why not replace stock that is more urgently needed to go first, i.e the 72s and then the 92s, followed by the W and C trains. I cant really see the point of replacing the W & C before the other two lines unless its the very first stock to be replaced (before the picc), the ntfl will hardly be a difference on the W and C in comparison to the other lines so why not either make this the very first stock to go or the very last. Sure someone of far superior knowledge to mine will know why Thanks, A few observations. The NTfL project projected a 35% capacity increase on the W&C with the upgrade, which really is a big deal - more than is projected for the Bakerloo or the Central. The Piccadilly will get the new trains first because it needs the new trains and the capacity uplift the most. But it will go driverless last. The W&C will still be the first to go driverless in the 2013 plan which I'm basing this on. Of course things could well have changed. br7mt suggested that the W&C would be done before the Piccadilly and I'm sure they know a lot more than I do, but we can still look at this in terms of what they may have been thinking in 2013 if the plans shown in the chart have changed. The drain is a nuisance little line to operate, crewed as it is by Leytonstone, so removing the headache of manning it may or may not be on the wishlist. The drain still uses tripcock protection, unlike the Central which has full ATO and is capable of delivering 34 tph - albeit only briefly and assuming the trains are all working, which .... Both the Bakerloo and Central line fleets are getting life-extension works and refurbishment. The W&C fleet was done a while ago and I don't believe it'll retire with as many bells and whistles as the Bakerloo and Central fleets.
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Post by stapler on Dec 2, 2016 8:34:21 GMT
I like Tut's little line of dots after which! Even with the NTfL, surely only a modest (?1, ?2) tph improvement is possible on the 34 through the pipe, determined by the closeness of stations, and the basic time requirements of loading/unloading passengers?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 14:13:04 GMT
The 92s are due to have some major structural work carried out mid 2018
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Post by toby on Dec 2, 2016 16:06:28 GMT
The W&C is being used as a test for what seems to be a more than normal upgrade in train.
As you've seen above there's various somewhat random reasons why age isn't the sole factor, and by the time the W&C proves Ntfl is good we'll have a far better idea of which line has trains nearing their end.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 2, 2016 22:59:07 GMT
Maybe the W&C fleet will end up being included inside trains that have LUL cars on the outer ends? Similar to the 1972 stock cars that were used as muddle DM's in Victoria Line trains? Or even used for a resurrected Woodford - Hainault shuttle, and driven in a manual form similar to the 1962 TS Rats and 1960 TS TRC? This will increase the Central Line fleet.
Simon
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 0:59:33 GMT
Maybe the W&C fleet will end up being included inside trains that have LUL cars on the outer ends? Similar to the 1972 stock cars that were used as muddle DM's in Victoria Line trains? Or even used for a resurrected Woodford - Hainault shuttle, and driven in a manual form similar to the 1962 TS Rats and 1960 TS TRC? This will increase the Central Line fleet. Simon No tripcocks up on the main so the trains would need to be fitted with at least ATP (probably a whole lot else as well) to operate by themselves.
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Post by stapler on Dec 3, 2016 7:47:15 GMT
By the time they are available, the existing Central RATs will be 65-70 years old, so perhaps they will end up replacing them? By the way, I like Simon's idea of "muddle DMs"
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 4, 2016 18:09:46 GMT
Maybe the W&C fleet will end up being included inside trains that have LUL cars on the outer ends? Similar to the 1972 stock cars that were used as muddle DM's in Victoria Line trains? Or even used for a resurrected Woodford - Hainault shuttle, and driven in a manual form similar to the 1962 TS Rats and 1960 TS TRC? This will increase the Central Line fleet. Simon No tripcocks up on the main so the trains would need to be fitted with at least ATP (probably a whole lot else as well) to operate by themselves. Do middle DM's need ATP driving equipment? I thought that the attraction for the Victoria Line was that by using 1972 tube stock DM's as middle cabs on trains hich have 1967 stock DM's at the outer edges there could be more trains without having to install any ATO equipment on the 1972 stock DM's. btw, "muddle" is what happens when passengers try to board a train but find that the expected door is not there (because its a middle cab) this especially occurs if its at the location within the train where they normally like to stand whilst travelling. (spoken from direct experience on the Central Line). Simon
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 19:43:29 GMT
I meant that you couldn't run Hainault/Woodford shuttles with just the W&C stock unless you were to install ATP.
There may have been changes to the computers in each unit so the Central Line 92ts might not be able to "see" or "talk" to the W&C 92ts.
Does the W&C stock have any form of DVA system? Or is it just manual PAs?
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Post by metman on Dec 5, 2016 11:30:10 GMT
I think the 1992 on the drain are electronically incompatible with the central line stock and are technically more advanced than the 1967/72 stock. I don't know which mods were required to the middle motors of the 72s but it is interesting that a fair few mark 1s are in storage at Eastleigh still......I digress.
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Post by drainrat on Dec 18, 2016 20:59:51 GMT
I meant that you couldn't run Hainault/Woodford shuttles with just the W&C stock unless you were to install ATP. There may have been changes to the computers in each unit so the Central Line 92ts might not be able to "see" or "talk" to the W&C 92ts. Does the W&C stock have any form of DVA system? Or is it just manual PAs? can run green to green, obviously needing monitoring, which would make it impractical. there is a DVA system but it's not automatic, it's same as the number cruncher DVA on central line
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Post by alpinejohn on Dec 26, 2016 17:39:19 GMT
I spotted some interesting comments by the Mayor to the London assembly including some indicative dates to replace the Piccadilly line stock, which presumably will be equipped with NTFL?
Among several interesting observations was confirmation that there would be two tenders issued for the Piccadilly line one to cover the rolling stock and a second for the signalling. The mayor indicated that the tenders would be issued in 2017, and orders placed in 2019, with new signalling being installed in 2021 and new rolling stock deliveries "from" 2023. I did not notice the Mayor actually refer to NTFL (whether this is intentional is not clear?). One clear implication is the new signalling will be installed first, whilst the existing rolling stock is still in service. Does this imply the old fleet will need to be retrofitted? If so it will presumably mean a period when even less units are available for service on a line which is hard pressed to handle peak demand. If not, does it mean the new signalling system will remain dormant until all the new NTFL units arrive - allowing a big bang switch-over, and avoiding the need to modify the existing rolling stock. That may explain the mayor use of the phrase Deliveries rather than introduction into service. If they are planning a big bang solution I wonder how they intend to mitigate any teething trouble risks. Another intriguing factor is the complexities of joint running with S stock on part of the route which may rule out a proven off the shelf signalling solution. Given past procurement problems with SSR signalling I fear the proposed signalling system delivery date may prove optimistic especially if they are aiming for a solution which can eventually be enhanced to allow autonomous operation at some stage in the future.
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Post by Chris M on Dec 26, 2016 18:01:00 GMT
I would expect that the method of transition between old and new systems and rolling stock would form part of the tenders for the work, TfL simply specifying what outcome they want rather than prescribing a method of getting there.
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Post by 100andthirty on Dec 26, 2016 19:32:39 GMT
Tenders for the new trains for what is now the Deep Tube Upgrade were received in September 2016
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 27, 2016 9:47:52 GMT
I did not notice the Mayor actually refer to NTFL (whether this is intentional is not clear?). Calling it the New Train for London was Boris's idea, as the New Bus has been such a disaster I'd imagine they're trying to disassociate the new trains as much as possible from anything Boris related. One clear implication is the new signalling will be installed first, whilst the existing rolling stock is still in service. Does this imply the old fleet will need to be retrofitted? If so it will presumably mean a period when even less units are available for service on a line which is hard pressed to handle peak demand. If not, does it mean the new signalling system will remain dormant until all the new NTFL units arrive - allowing a big bang switch-over, and avoiding the need to modify the existing rolling stock. That may explain the mayor use of the phrase Deliveries rather than introduction into service. If they are planning a big bang solution I wonder how they intend to mitigate any teething trouble risks. According to the invitation to tender released in January they will be driven by an operator until Platform Edge Doors are fitted. No way on earth they are going to retrofit trains that are going to the scrap heap in weeks or months so the assumption is that the new stock will be fitted with tripcocks and use the old signals. If they are delivered at the same rate as the S or the 2009 stock then they'll be arriving at a rate of one train per week, the Piccadilly has 86 trains so that's about a year and eight months to replace the 1973 stock. Before M1 in Paris was converted to driverless operation management held lengthy negotiations with the unions, the same is going to be necessary in the case of the Piccadilly Bakerloo, Central and W&C. Except this is London Underground and we all know just how competent management are at negotiating with unions before they try to do something........
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